yes totally .


you do have good imagination .


PS It doesn't matter what a poor nation of 5 million people claims. It is insignificant.

I just have to ask you directly.

When the Ottoman Empire finaly died, do you think the last parts of it was divided correctly? Not only Turks lived in Thrace/Anatolia, by what right do only they get it tottaly?

I guess "might" makes "right", but it was just that, strong arm right.

You know the Armenians, so many who lived in east Anatolia for so long deserved more then that tiny little scrap they got inside Russia.

And you know the Greeks, with so many who lived so long on the west and north coasts of Anatolia, and with so many who lived in Thrace, deserved more then crapy little west thrace and a few rock islands.


Do you acknowledge that more then just Turks called Anatolia/Thrace home? Was it fair or moral to throw them all out?

(I know you will say something about the moslems in the Balkans, or Crete, etc. but we are talking about 1922 and Asia Minor/Thrace the last part of Ottoman Empire. Ottoman Empire was more then a "turkish" Empire, it was an Empire of many people. More then just Turks should of gotten some of the last parts)

ottoman empire's population density map of ethnics would help turks more than armenians or greeks. those maps that are comfirmed by other population counts done by others can always be used. do you acknowledge how many turks seek their roots in lands that is called today greece? ...how muslim majortiy armenian capital city has zero muslims while there are many christians in turkey ... can you please compare how you threw turks out and how turks threw you out.

it would be fair if turks did exact same things to greeks during german invasion of greece that greeks done to turks before/during/after WW1 .... fair enough.

btw, albanians are only known nation in balkans who were not emigrated to region... don't you think they deserve more tiny part of balkans. i mean not only chameria... what about macedonians...?

@nico

you are having a laugh mate?

are you trying to redraw national borderlines of 1922 with your magic pen ?


while you are at it, give the US back to the native americans, florida back to Spaniards, and Alaska back to Russia(don't forget the 40 mules and an acre to the blacks).

if you do you will be left homeless .


then what to do with that magic pen?

Protests in Yerevan over Turkish talks

Wednesday September 16, 2009

YEREVAN (Reuters) – A group of Armenian nationalists began a hunger strike yesterday in protest at an historic rapprochement between long-term foes Armenia and Turkey.

The neighbors said last month that they had agreed to establish diplomatic relations and open their border as part of a plan to end almost a century of hostility stemming from the World War One killings of Armenians by Ottoman Turks.

The hunger strikers are supporters of the nationalist party the Armenian Revolutionary Federation, known as Dashnaktsutyun.

The party accuses the government of giving up on historical Armenian claims to Turkish territory and recognition of last century’s killings as genocide. It says there can be no thaw unless Turkey recognizes the killings as genocide.

Ankara rejects the term genocide, saying many people died on both sides of the conflict.

Sit-down protest

Twenty-four nationalists began a hunger strike in front of the Foreign Ministry in Yerevan, and another 50 started a sit-down protest in front of the government building.

They pledged to stay until a period of domestic consultations in Turkey and Armenia ends in mid-October, when their presidents are due to sign accords on establishing ties and submit them for parliamentary ratification.

“We demand that the co-authors remove the preconditions hidden between the lines,” said hunger striker Gegham Manukyan.

The accords published last month call on Armenia and Turkey to pursue dialogue “on the historic dimension” and an “impartial scientific examination of the historical records and archives to define existing problems and formulate recommendations.”

The Dashnaktsutyun has a strong following among Armenia’s huge diaspora. It split from Armenia’s ruling coalition after the Turkish-Armenian rapprochement was first announced in April.

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Ankara, Yerevan set to sign landmark deal

Thursday September 17, 2009

ANKARA (AFP) – A landmark deal to establish ties between longtime foes Turkey and Armenia is likely to be signed ahead of a soccer game between the two countries next month, a Turkish official said yesterday. Turkey’s Foreign Ministry spokesman Burak Ozugergin made the comment in reacting to media reports that the deal would be signed on October 13, the day before the soccer teams from Turkey and Armenia meet for a World Cup qualification game. “We have a month... I think the signing will be sometime around this time,” Ozugergin told reporters. Following the signing, the protocols will be submitted to the Turkish and Armenian parliaments for ratification, after which they will take effect. The deal has come under fire from opposition groups in both countries, which accuse their governments of making concessions.

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AFP/File – Turkish President Abdullah Gul (left) shakes hands with his Armenian counterpart Serzh Sarkisian during …


Turkey, Armenia to sign diplomatic deal: official

by Sibel Utku Bila Sibel Utku Bila – 1 hr 8 mins ago

ANKARA (AFP) – Turkey and Armenia will sign a landmark deal to establish
diplomatic ties next month in Switzerland after a decades-long grudge over a World War I massacre, a Turkish official said Sunday.

"The signing is planned to take place on October 10 in Zurich," the official told AFP on condition of anonymity.

Foreign ministers Ahmet Davutoglu of Turkey and Eduard Nalbandian of Armenia are expected to ink two protocols, the texts of which had been agreed earlier and internationally hailed as a major breakthrough, he said.

Swiss Foreign Minister Micheline Calmy-Rey, whose country acted as a mediator in reconciliation talks between the two neighbours, is also likely to attend the ceremony, he said.

Long estranged by a bloody history, Turkey and Armenia announced last month the talks had resulted in two protocols calling for the establishment of diplomatic ties and re-opening their border.

They also set a timetable for a series of steps to improve ties.

A Swiss foreign ministry official said the signing ceremony "will probably take place in Switzerland," while Armenian officials were not available for comment.

The protocols, however, will not take effect immediately.

Both governments will submit the documents to their respective parliaments for ratification, a process expected to take time.

The United States and the European Union, which Turkey is seeking to join, have both repeatedly urged Ankara to reconcile with Yerevan.

The deal, however, has come under fire from opposition groups in both countries, which accuse their governments of making concessions.

Turkey has refused to establish diplomatic ties with Armenia over Yerevan's international campaign to have the World War I massacres of Armenians by Ottoman Turks recognised as genocide.

Armenians say up to 1.5 million of their people were killed in what was a genocide, backed by a number of other countries much to Ankara's ire.

Turkey rejects the genocide label and argues that 300,000-500,000 Armenians and at least as many Turks died in civil strife when Armenians took up arms against their Ottoman rulers and sided with invading Russian troops.

In 1993, Turkey also closed its border with Armenia in a show of solidarity with close ally Azerbaijan over Yerevan's backing of ethnic Armenian separatists in Azerbaijan's breakaway Nagorny Karabakh region.

The move dealt a serious economic blow to impoverished Armenia.

The signing of the protocols will precede an eagerly anticipated football game between the two countries.

The fence-mending process had gathered steam in September 2008 when Turkish President Abdullah Gul paid a landmark visit to Yerevan to watch the first leg of a World Cup qualification match between Turkey and Armenia.

It is unclear whether his Armenian counterpart Serzh Sarkisian will return the gesture when the second leg is played in the northwestern Turkish city of Bursa on October 14.

The Ankara government is under fire for reconciling with Yerevan without progress in the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict, facing accusations of selling out Azerbaijan, which has close ethnic and political bonds with Turkey.

Political analysts say the government is unlikely to seek a parliamentary vote to ratify the protocols before progress is made in relations between Azerbaijan and Armenia.

In Armenia, the deal is under fire for its inclusion of plans to create a commission to examine historical grievances -- a point, which critics say, calls into question Yerevan's genocide claims.

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Let's all invite our Armenian friends to this forum and ask them what they think!

Neeeee???!!!!
Oiiiiii thanks but i don't think they will be "friendly" toward us, we don't need more insults
Aman aman .... we don't need more

Armenia ruling coalition backs Turkey ties

Friday, October 2, 2009

YEREVAN – Agence France-Presse

The three parties in Armenia's ruling coalition, which holds a majority in the country's parliament, said Friday they would support establishing ties with Turkey after decades of hostility.

"The Armenian state has shown courage ... regarding the future of our country and improving ties between the two countries," the Republican, Prosperous Armenia and Rule of Law parties said in a joint statement.

"We welcome such a policy and urge all citizens of Armenia, all political and social organizations, as well as all Armenians around the world, to create the necessary conditions for this process to be successfully carried out."

Link

AFP
Employees of an Armenian cargo company unload a truck at a cargo terminal in Istanbul. After fleeing a crisis in their homeland, thousands of Armenians defied their fears and moved illegally to Turkey to seek their fortunes in Istanbul. With the current link between Turkey and Armenia, they now express hope that they can emerge from the shadows and live a more normal life.


Immigrants gain hope

Thursday October 8, 2009

Illegal Armenians waiting to emerge from the shadows with Turkey deal

By Nicolas Cheviron - Agence France-Presse

ISTANBUL – Suzan, like many Armenians living clandestinely in Istanbul, came for the money. But the better life is also one of constant fear as an illegal alien living among the “enemy.”

The 51-year-old’s decision has proved quite profitable. As a teacher to children of other illegal Armenian immigrants, Suzan multiplied her monthly wages by seven – from $50 to $350 (34 to 240 euros). But she also worries every day about getting caught by Turkish police.

In a basement serving as a makeshift school, she talked about the unease of thousands of Armenians like herself. Forced to leave their impoverished country to earn a living, they have settled in Turkey’s biggest city, facing up to their historical fear of Turks and braving an illegal existence. “My relatives who stayed in Armenia do not know Turkey. They have difficulty accepting what I do here and that adds to my sadness,” she said.

Suzan is hoping all that may change soon with a rare chance of peace between the neighbors and foes, at odds over claims of a 1915-17 Turkish genocide against Armenians. Then she and others could emerge from the shadows and work freely in Turkey. Suzan said she could have an even “better life” and, maybe, set up a “small business” between the two countries.

In a major breakthrough, Turkey and Yerevan announced in August a deal to establish diplomatic ties for the first time and open their border, sealed since 1993. The two countries are expected to ink the deal on Saturday in Switzerland before submitting it to their respective parliaments for ratification. If the process succeeds, it would change the picture for the illegal Armenians already in Istanbul as well as the five to six busloads coming in every week from Yerevan after a grueling 35-hour journey via Georgia. They enter Turkey on a one-month tourist visa, but many are looking to set up a new life here.

Their existence is no secret to Turkish authorities: In April, President Abdullah Gul said there were more than 70,000 Armenian citizens working in Turkey, and in May, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said about 40,000 of these were illegal and said his government was not sending them back out of humanitarian concerns.

One of those illegal Armenians tolerated by authorities is Sveta, who arrived in Istanbul, a bustling metropolis of more than 12 million, seven years ago. Armed with a huge smile that shows several gold teeth, the 55-year-old recalled how at first she dreaded the idea of living among Turks, only to discover that her fears were groundless. “After I arrived, I started working in a shoe factory. I was the only woman among 40 men and the only Armenian among 40 Turks,” she said. “But, in fact, they always treated me like a big sister. They never said anything bad to me.” Sveta lives with her two daughters, son-in-law and two grandchildren in a two-room flat with no heating and her visa expired long ago. Despite the hardships, she does not regret her choice. “Coming to Turkey is not expensive at all and there are no problems here... The police never ask any questions,” she said.

Fabio Salomoni, an Italian sociologist at Istanbul’s Koc University who has published research on immigration from the Caucasus to Turkey, estimated the number of illegal Armenian immigrants in Istanbul at 20,000. He said most were women of over 40 employed as nannies or cleaners as there is greater demand for them. According to Salomoni, the presence of a centuries-old local Armenian community in Istanbul, numbering around 70,000, plays a role in the flow of Armenian citizens to the city. “The existence of the community and the fact that the city is full of concrete Armenian symbols reinforce the immigrants’ feeling of security: They feel a bit at home,” he said.

Despite hopes for peace, loyalty runs deep. Teacher Suzan, for one, stressed that she would never make concessions on the World War I massacres of Armenians under Turkey’s predecessor, the Ottoman Empire, which Yerevan says constituted a genocide. “This is not possible. This is our history and we will not be able to forget it,” she added.

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Armenian peace activist to cross Turkey with 44 wolves

Tuesday, October 6, 2009

VERCİHAN ZİFLİOĞLU

YEREVAN - Hürriyet Daily News

As the debate over the closed border between Turkey and Armenia intensifies with the recent talk of normalizing relations, an Italian-Armenian also waits for a green light from the Turkish authorities to enter Turkey.

Ararad Khatchikan is not interested in visiting his distant kinsmen in any Turkish village, nor in making small-scale trade agreements with Turkish vendors. Instead, his sole aim is to carry a peace message to the peoples on both sides of the Turkish-Armenian border with 44 Siberian wolves that he has trained for sleigh races.

Each wolf will carry a white flag as a symbol of peace, the Armenian peace activist told the Hürriyet Daily News & Economic Review for the third Postcard from Armenia. “My family has endured great suffering but nobody would benefit by [being] trapped by the past. The fighting must end. Let me pass from the border in the name of friendship and peace,” he pleaded.

Khatchikan said his biggest dream is to reach the outskirts of Mt. Ağrı, or Ararad in Armenian, after getting a visa from Turkey. “Ağrı or Ararad, it does not matter at all,” he said, adding: “I will be proud of carrying the name of that holy mountain for all my life. None of us get to choose their identities and relations. We are all one and equal. We are all brothers.”

Khatchikan said that although he is a member of the Armenian diaspora, he can assess the recent developments between Turkey and Armenia more moderately. “It will be a mistake, if we [associate] the Armenian diaspora with just its radical wing. There are people who see matters with a more moderate outlook. We can [help] our societies engage in dialogue through those people,” he said.

Khatchikan said he had made the first official application for his peace project through the Turkish Embassy in Rome in 2007, but then decided to delay it. “[Armenian daily] Agos Editor-in-Chief Hrant Dink fell victim to an assassination in Istanbul while my negations were ongoing with the Turkish authorities. I got confused, so I shelved it.”

Khatchikan was born in Khartoum, the capital of Sudan to an Armenian father and Italian mother. His family fled Turkey during the 1915 killings of Armenians and sheltered in Khartoum before resettling in Italy. For years, Khatchikan attended various peace activities in several countries alongside his Turkish friends, but he never visited Turkey. His recent visit to Armenia was also his first trip to the tiny country. While visiting Khor Virap Monastery, which is only few meters away from the Turkish border and has the best view of Mt. Ağrı, Khatchikan said: “This is a magical view. Turkey is just a few kilometers away and that is unbelievable.”

---

In our fourth Postcard from Armenia, two senior Armenian editors will share their thoughts on the recent thaw between Turkey and Armenia and its potential implications.

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Armenian experts skeptical on Turkish-Armenian thaw

Wednesday, October 7, 2009

VERCİHAN ZİFLİOĞLU

YEREVAN - Hürriyet Daily News

Two senior Armenian experts express pessimism over the normalization talks between Turkey and Armenia, saying the hostility between the two countries will not be resolved in the near future. The rancor will not end, unless the Turkish government accepts responsibility for the ‘genocide,’ says one

The recent thaw between Turkey and Armenia, which are nearing a historic diplomatic agreement after years of animosity over alleged killings of Armenians during the late days of the Ottoman Empire, has been met with cynicism from some senior Armenian experts.

“For nearly 100 years, Turkey has denied the genocide fact that has wrecked Armenians. This hostility will not end unless the Turkish government accepts responsibility for the genocide,” said Ara Khachatourian, editor of Asbarez Daily News, one of the leading diaspora newspapers published in the United States.

Razmig Panossian, author and director of Policy for Programs and Planning at Rights and Democracy in Canada, agreed with Khachatourian, saying that he does not believe the long-standing hostility between the two nations will be solved in the near future. “It would be wrong to expect such a delicate historic trauma to come to a solution in a short time.” However, Panossian also said the dialogue between Turkey and Armenia should be encouraged despite the problematic timing and the thorny issues that are waiting to be solved.

Armenia claims up to 1.5 million Armenians were systematically killed in 1915 under the rule of the Ottoman Empire. Turkey denies this, saying that any deaths were the result of civil strife that erupted when Armenians took up arms for independence in eastern Anatolia.

Turkey and Armenia agreed on steps toward establishing full diplomatic ties for the first time between the neighbors in late August. Despite fierce domestic and international opposition, the two countries are expected to sign a landmark diplomatic deal this weekend in Zurich.

Diplomatic sources said both countries are now in a win-win situation, while admitting that the job of Armenian President Serge Sarkisian was much more difficult considering the protests of the Armenian diaspora, which were evident in Paris, New York and Los Angeles.

Khacatourian said the protest against Sarkisian would continue “because it is a basic right of the diaspora.” But, Panossian’s stance on the protests differs from Khacatourian. He said there are two diasporas: the “post-genocide diaspora” and the “post-1988 diaspora.”

“The ‘post-genocide diaspora’ will oppose Sarkisian’s policies toward Turkey due to its ultra-nationalist nature. On the other hand, the birthplace of the ‘post-1988 diaspora’ is Armenia and this group would support Armenia, therefore the policies of Sarkisian, whatever it costs,” he told Hürriyet Daily News & Economic Review for the fourth edition of the Postcard from Armenia series.

Diaspora’s stance:

After the signing ceremony in Switzerland, the documents that aim to establish full ties will be dispatched to the respective parliaments for ratification. The ceremony will be followed by the World Cup qualifying match that will take place in Bursa on Oct. 14 between the Turkish and Armenian national teams.

The first protocol, covering the establishment of diplomatic relations, and the second, on the further development of bilateral relations, are accompanied by an annex that sets a clear timetable for the implementation of both.

A first sign of rapprochement came in September last year, when Turkish President Abdullah Gül went to the Armenian capital, Yerevan, to visit Sarkisian and watch a World Cup soccer qualifying match between the two countries.

The two neighbors have no diplomatic relations and their border has been closed since 1993, after Turkey’s decision to support its key ally, Azerbaijan, against Yerevan's backing of ethnic Armenian separatists in the breakaway Nagorno-Karabakh region.

Khacatourian also criticized Turkey for its Nagorno-Karabakh precondition to opening the Turkish-Armenian border. “Turkey has unilaterally closed the border and now it puts the Nagorno-Karabakh problem as the precondition to open it. Turkey is playing innocent at every stage and does not accept its responsibilities. The border should be opened with no preconditions because that is the fair thing to do.”

Panossian also said Turkey should not link the matter of the border opening with the Nagorno-Karabakh issue, urging the two countries to open their borders immediately. “Rather than discussing preconditions, the border between the two countries should be opened and diplomatic relations should begin,” he said

In our fifth Postcard from Armenia, geologists tell of the obstacles they have faced during their groundbreaking work near the Turkish-Armenian border.

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Turkish court jeopardises Armenia entente

Thomas Seibert, Foreign Correspondent

Last Updated: October 09. 2009 12:50AM UAE / October 8. 2009 8:50PM GMT

ISTANBUL // Just days before Turkey and neighbouring Armenia, long divided by a bitter dispute over the death of up to 1.5 million Armenians in Anatolia a century ago, are expected to sign agreements for a normalisation of relations, Turkey’s judiciary has dealt a blow to efforts to open a discussion about the massacres, critics say.

In a decision that was condemned by commentators and human rights activists yesterday, Turkey’s court of appeals gave the green light for a civil case against the country’s first and only Nobel laureate, Orhan Pamuk.

According to media reports, the court ruled that six nationalists had the right to go to court in order to demand compensation from Pamuk because of statements he made about what happened to the Armenians almost a hundred years ago.

“Thirty-thousand Kurds and a million Armenians have been killed and almost nobody dares to mention that, except for me,” Pamuk was quoted as saying in a Swiss magazine in 2005. That statement triggered criminal charges against Pamuk, which were dropped on technical grounds in early 2006.

A group of six nationalists, including a right-wing lawyer who had also led the criminal charges against the writer, opened a civil case against Pamuk and demanded 35,000 Lira (Dh 88,000) each in compensation. They argued that they, as Turkish citizens, had been insulted by Pamuk’s statements. A court in Istanbul threw out the charges, but the appeals court ruled earlier this week that the plaintiffs had the right to feel insulted. The lower court in Istanbul now has to restart proceedings.

The decision came days before government ministers from Turkey and Armenia are to meet in Switzerland tomorrow to sign protocols hammered out by diplomats from the two sides in months of secret talks under Swiss mediation. The protocols foresee the establishment of diplomatic relations and the opening of the border between the two countries that has been closed since 1992. Ankara and Yerevan also want to establish a committee of experts tasked with exploring what really happened in the year 1915, when hundreds of thousands of Armenians were killed by Turks and Kurds in the dying days of the Ottoman Empire.

Armenia and many international scholars say the deaths amounted to genocide, a label rejected by Turkey. The two countries are also at odds about the conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh, an Armenian enclave in Azerbaijan that was attacked by Armenian forces in the early 1990s. Turkey has said it will be careful to safeguard the interests of its close ally Azerbaijan in the rapprochement with Armenia.

The move for reconciliation has many critics in both Turkey and Armenia, and Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the Turkish prime minister, has made it clear that the last word about the protocols will lie with parliament in Ankara. The Armenian question was a taboo in Turkish society for a long time. A debate about the events of 1915 only started several years ago, with academic conferences and an internet initiative that attracted the support of tens of thousands of Turks who offered their apology for the massacres and for the state of denial with which the events had been treated in Turkey.

Now, the appeals court decision threatens to stifle that debate, critics say. “Everybody, but really everybody can now go to court and demand compensation from Orhan Pamuk, saying ‘you insulted me’,” Emre Akoz, a columnist for the Sabah newspaper, wrote yesterday. “What are we to do with such a judiciary?” Referring to the plans to let experts deal with the question of what really happened to the Armenians, Akoz wondered if the historians involved would also end up in court if they concluded that “one million Armenians were killed”.

Metin Bakkalci, the general secretary of the Turkish Human Rights Foundation, a leading rights group, said the appeals court decision posed a threat to freedom of speech. “It also makes Pamuk a target” for potential attacks by radical nationalists, Mr Bakkalci said.

“We lost Hrant Dink in an atmosphere like this,” Mr Bakkalci said. Dink, a Turkish journalist of Armenian descent who openly talked about Turkey’s need to come to terms with its past and was sentenced for “insulting Turkishness”, was killed by nationalists in 2007. “We need to save Turkey from such an atmosphere,” Mr Bakkalci said.

One of the defendants in the trial following the murder of Dink uttered threats against Pamuk, saying the writer should “be careful”. Since his criminal trial in 2005, Pamuk has spent much of his time outside Turkey.

The appeals court decision may also trigger new criticism from the EU, which Turkey wants to join. As the EU commission prepares to publish its latest progress report about Turkey next week, Turkish media have been reporting that Brussels will again say that Turkey lags behind in the area of freedom of expression.

According to the news channel CNN-Turk, the EU is expected to underline that Turkish courts dealing with issues concerning freedom of speech do not follow the guidelines set by the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg, France. As a member of the Council of Europe, Turkey has to abide by the decisions handed down by Strasbourg.

tseibert@thenational.ae

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Azerbaijan bristles at Turkey after Armenia pact

11 October 2009, Sunday

AP BAKU

Azerbaijan has criticized the agreement between Turkey and Armenia saying it aggravates the dispute over its breakaway enclave of Nagorno-Karabakh.

The Azeri Foreign Ministry said Sunday that the agreement "clouds the spirit of brotherly relations" between Azerbaijan and Turkey. It said Turkey should not have re-established diplomatic ties with Armenia before the conflict over Nagorno-Karabakh was settled.

Armenia and Turkey agreed Saturday to establish diplomatic relations and open their border, which was sealed after the 1993 Armenian invasion of Nagorno-Karabakh, an area dominated by ethnic Armenians.

Azerbaijan and Turkey share cultural and linguistic ties, and Turkish leaders pledged earlier to help Azeris recover the enclave.

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