X2

There was a clear intent to wipe the Muslims out and the act of trying to realize that intent; with great cruelty. If that isn't genocide I don't know what is.

West, Dont you know that Genocide can only be carried out against Christians and Jews....

Yet, the clear intent to wipe out Christian populations be they Greek or Armenian, by the Turks, where over 2 million were butchered, according to you guys, isn't genocide, even though there was a systematic process from the top down.


See what we mean when we say you guys are full of shit?

When its your muslim brothers elsewhere who have been the victims, its boom time for the tissue industry, but when it comes to your own crimes, which are very very well documented by the victims and independent sources alike, nah, your hard pressed to admit genocide then heyy.


Bugger off and go worship your Ataturk posters.

err...I thought both me and LosM recognized the armenian genocide..

and by the way it wasn't a "clear intent" if it was being excused with forced deportations was it? And the number "butchered" come closer to 700.000 not 2 million. Why is everyone exaggerating the number?

and for me atleast, religion plays NO FACTOR whatsoever in my judgement on historical events, I couldn't care less for religion.

Sravros, you fucking idiot.. when did myself and Westerort NOT recognise the Armenians killed in Turkey as Genocide ???



try use brain before typey typey big letters

Nobody is exagerating the number, you guys simply love to understate the numbers killed. And while you may recognise the Armeanian genocide, Im talking about the Armenian AND Pontian genocides combined, hence "Christian populations"..

Do you recognise the Pontian genocide?

The title of this thread is fitting.

Even if Hitler did say that, there is no proof that he had.
It is also impossible to prove that someone didn't say something, but that is basically what they ask us to do. Sadly, this is the position we end up in.

Where is the proof of this systematic process...?
Who butchered over 2 million Turkish civilians during the same period...?

The numbers aren't understated, they're accurate. And to be embarrasingly honest, I do not know nearly enough about the pontian genocide to give an opinion.

The point here is that I wasn't being a hypocrite. Let me ask you this; do you recognize the muslim bosnian genocide?

International court rules '95 massacre was genocide

But panel decides Serbia could not be found guilty

NEW YORK TIMES NEWS SERVICE and BLOOMBERG NEWS SERVICE

February 27, 2007

THE HAGUE, the Netherlands – The International Court of Justice called the massacre of Bosnian Muslims at Srebrenica in 1995 an act of genocide yesterday but determined that the Serbian government could not be found guilty of the crime.



HIDAJET DELIC / Associated Press
Fatima Bektic (right), a survivor of the Srebrenica massacre, reacted to the court ruling after seeing the news on TV in the village of Podlugovi, Bosnia.
The panel ruled 13-2 that Serbia was not responsible for the killings because it did not have effective control over the Bosnian Serb forces it had helped arm and finance.

Nonetheless, it said in a 12-3 vote that Serbia “could and should” have prevented the genocide. It said Serbia also should have punished the Bosnian Serbs who systematically killed close to 8,000 men and boys in July 1995.

The rulings resulted from a civil lawsuit Bosnia had brought against Serbia, the first in which one country sued another for genocide.

The genocide ruling sparked outrage in Bosnia. “Shame on the people who reached such a verdict. How can they say not guilty of genocide when there are photos, video footage?” Zinaida Mujic of the Mothers of Srebrenica association said in Sarajevo.

If Serbia had been held liable for genocide, it could have cleared the way for Bosnia to sue its neighbor for damages while Serbia is seeking to forge closer trade ties with the European Union and strengthen its economy by selling state assets and attracting investment.

The judges deliberated for nearly 10 months, relying in part on evidence presented in criminal cases heard by the U.N. Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia, which has found two Bosnian Serb officers guilty of genocide for the Srebrenica massacre. A war crimes trial against former Serbian President Slobodan Milosevic ended when he died in custody last year.

During the war in Bosnia, from 1992 to 1995, the United Nations declared Srebrenica a haven and promised to protect it. But in July 1995, Bosnian Serb forces overwhelmed 370 lightly armed Dutch peacekeepers, seized control of the enclave and killed virtually every Bosnian Muslim man and boy they captured there.

That massacre led to yesterday's rulings, which stressed that large-scale killings and abuse of Bosnian Muslims had taken place with the financial and military support of Serbia during the war that broke up Yugoslavia.

The former Yugoslav People's Army withdrew from Bosnia in 1992, leaving most of its weapons to Bosnian Serbs. A number of former officers also remained behind to serve with the Bosnian Serb military.

The Serbs did nothing to avert atrocities or prevent the killings, “claiming they were powerless, which hardly tallies with their known influence” over the Bosnian Serb forces, the ruling concluded.

Serbia thereby violated the United Nations' Convention on Genocide to which it is a party, the court found.

Failing to arrest and hand over the Bosnian Serb military commander, Ratko Mladic, was a further violation, the court said in a 14-1 decision.

Lawyers for Bosnia had tried to convince the court that the pattern of atrocities across Bosnia demonstrated Serbia's intent to commit genocide by killing, imprisoning and deporting the population.

But the judges ruled that demonstrating a pattern of conduct or of atrocities was “too broad” to qualify for the definition of genocide.

The crime of genocide required showing convincingly there was a specific plan or the specific intention to destroy the group or part of it, they ruled.

Yes i do recognise it.

But I also take the blinders off long enough to see that ALL sides involved are guilty of war crimes and unspeakable attrocities against civilians. Something alot of Turks in here fail to even begin to understand about the conflict. All they see is Muslims were killed, and thats all they care about. In the same way certain posters supporter the Chechen and Palestinian terror groups, but are against the PKK terrorists.

GREEKS HELPED LIBERATE SREBRENICA
OMRI, Inc.
14 July 1995

GREEK VOLUNTEERS FOUGHT ALONGSIDE BOSNIAN SERBS.

AFP on 13 July reported that a dozen Greek volunteers fought along Bosnian Serbs who captured Srebrenica. According to a report in the Greek daily Ethnos, they raised the Greek flag over the town's destroyed Orthodox church. Since the start of the war, about 100 Greeks have fought in a "guard of volunteers" based in Vlasenica, in central Bosnia. They were recruited in Belgrade, and liaison offices have been set up in Athens and Thessaloniki. A student working in one of the offices said he received may calls from "patriotic" candidates and claimed to have fought himself in Bosnia for six months. He added the Greek authorities "never caused any problems" and that the Greek intelligence service was in touch with the volunteers.

While the frantic efforts of the rich Armenian lobbies are continuing to get the parliaments of the Western countries to accept the horrific events of the WWI in Anatolia, where more Turks suffered than the Armenians, as so-called Armenian genocide with the help of unscrupulous journalist, who do not mind distorting historical facts, a new act by the Greek parliament has rendered the word genocide meaningless.

In fact, the efforts of the Armenians and the Greeks who often work hand in hand made the word genocide a cheap word that has become very common. Almost all the suffering of the people of the world is named as genocide, with the exception of the suffering of the Turks, which includes the suffering of the Azerbaijani Turks at the hands of the Armenians only a decade ago.

What happened to the Armenians and the Greeks because they took part in the attacks against Ottoman Empire, their own country, cannot be compared with what happened to the Jewish people, who were completely innocent. While most of the Armenian and Greek populations of the Ottoman Empire survived, almost all the Jewish population of Europe was wiped out.

Greek genocide?

Encouraged by the distortion of the history by the French parliament concerning the so-called Armenian genocide, the Greek Minister of Culture Evangelos Venizelos and the Interior Minister Panos Kaiserlis issued a decree on February 9, which announced the September 15, as "the day of the genocide by Turkish forces against 'Greeks' in Asia Minor."

In fact the Greek Parliament had approved the decree in 1998 but it was not formalised, it needed the signature of President Costas Stephanopoulos to become law.

However, Greek premier Costas Simitis, with a timely intervention, which saved Greece from a certain embarrassment, asked ministers to remove the word "genocide" from the presidential decree concerning the allegation of genocide committed by Turkey against Christians living in Anatolia in 1920s.

Reporting on the decision of the two ministries, on 10 February 20001, AFP said: "Ironically, the day marks the recapture of Turkish troops in 1922 of the Aegean city of Izmir, which Greeks occupied along with several neighboring provinces after the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in World War I and its subsequent collapse."

AFP further reported that "Greek historian Angelos Elefantis told AFP in Athens that he was shocked by the term "genocide," never used in official Greek history. 'This is stupidity,' he said."

Also the official Greek institute, the Asia Minor Historical Research Institute, for historical studies concerning Asia Minor, announced on February 18, that the events that took place during the 1920s "can never be termed as genocide. The incidents that took place at that time were due to the war."

The Asia Minor Historical Research Institute is an official state institute known for its studies concerning the Christians, who lived in the Ottoman Empire. The institute comes under the Greek Culture Ministry. The announcement by this institute and the fact that this institute is a part of the Greek Culture Ministry, who prepared the decree, shows how ridiculous the decree is.

In addition to some Greek historians, some sections of the Greek media also ridiculed the idea that the Turks committed genocide on the Christians during the 1920s. Avgi, a Greek newspaper called on the Greek parliament to change the decree.

Amongst the people who criticised the action of the Greek government was also Dr. Georgios Nakracas, an out spoken critic of the Greek policy towards Turkey, who is already named as a traitor by the fanatic Greek circles because of his previous criticism of the Greek policy.

In a letter sent via e-mail to many international organisations, Nakracas clearly blaming the Greeks for what happened during the 1920s in Anatolia said: "As a Psychologist I feel, I have to say that the people who prepared this decree are clinical cases who are showing symptoms of weak historical knowledge," thus implying that the ministers, who prepared this decree had psychological problems.

Quoting Greek historians in his letter, Nakracas said that the Greeks were never a majority in Western Anatolia area of the Ottoman Empire and their numbers were around 450,000 not 1.5 million as the decree claimed. He also said that these people were not Greeks but Orthodox Christians later named as Romans only made up the 30% of the population of the area.

"This fascistic decree, which was proposed by three deputies, shows the lack of knowledge of these deputies concerning the ethnic identity of the people, who were Greek speaking, that lived in Western Anatolia during the East Roman Empire and the Ottoman Empire," Nakracas said.

Nakracas also stressed that the wording of the decree, which claims that the 'Greeks' who lived in the area were forced to leave their homes after the dramatic events of the 1922, does not reflect the reality.

"The Christians, who were living in the area supported the Greek invasion of the Anatolia in 1919 and many of them joined the Greek army to fight against the Turks, when they realise that the Turks were wining the war they fled the country," Nakracas said.

Nakracas, referring to a study carried out by the Selanico Macedonian Studies Institute, also pointed out that it was not the Turkish government but it was Eleftherios Venizelos who insisted on a forced population exchange between the two countries.

Indeed the decision of Costas Simitis to remove the word genocide from the decree prepared by Evangelos Venizelos, saved the Greeks from a certain embarrassment because it is recorded in the 1923 Laussane Treaty how the Greeks paid compensation to Turkey for the horrific atrocities committed against the Turks by the Greek army during its invasion of Western Anatolia.

Taking advantage of the devastation that the Turkish nation was in, with the support of Britain, Greeks invaded Western Turkey. They pillaged and burned the villages in their path, thousands of Turkish civilians were massacred; burning people their homes and rape was a common practice.

As Dr. Nakracas said, the Christians living in the area joined the Greek army and took part in the fighting against the Turkish army defending its own country and took part in the untold atrocities committed during the Greek invasion. When, under the leadership of Ataturk, the Turkish army started to win the war against the Greek army, these Christians fled the country together with the Greek invaders, burning Izmir, the most westerly Turkish city, on their way out.

During the Lausanne negotiations, the atrocities by the Greek forces against the Turkish people and the damages caused were registered in international law. Compensation for the actions of the Greek army and troops were discussed in Lausanne for months. The Allies also agreed that Greece had to pay compensation to Turkey.

Greek negotiator Eleftherios Venizelos, claiming that his country did not have any money, requested this condition to be rejected. He discussed the issue over and over again with Ismet Pasha and even threatened the allies, led by Britain, by signing a separate peace agreement with Turkey. The issue of compensation was a cause for tough negotiations. For a while, reaching an agreement in Lausanne was in jeopardy due to the arguments concerning the compensation.

Greece penniless because of the war she caused left the Karaagac region in Edirne to Turkey. Karaagac is the compensation for the war. The protocol consisting of only one article is among the additional Lausanne protocols. Greece was pleased to exchange the high burden of compensation for Karaagac at the time.

What makes the whole thing even more ridiculous is that Evangelos Venizelos, who prepared this decree, is the grand son of Eleftheiros Venizelos, the Greek Prime Minister who agreed to pay compensation to Turkey for the atrocities of the Greek army.

Removing the word genocide out of the decree does not change anything. Apart from distorting the historical facts surrounding the Greek invasion of Western Turkey and the atrocities committed by the Greek army, it makes a mockery out of the so-called rapprochement between the two countries.

This la-*test*-('") Greek action shows that the Greeks have not changed their bad intentions and enemy like policy towards Turkey.

The so-called rapprochement between the two countries is nothing but a show by the Greeks. Realising that their policy of keeping the tension high between the two countries was back firing and the fact that their co-operation with the PKK terrorists was exposed two years ago, they had to embark on the so-called rapprochement policy, in order to divert strong criticism from the other EU countries and the USA.

While some sensible Greeks spoke against this ridiculous decree, some of the Greek fanatics called the Greek Premier Simitis a pimp and a traitor. They asked for his removal from the office and asked for his punishment.

Evangelos Venizelos and the rest of the fanatic Greeks, who demonise Turks and Ataturk through their fabricated allegations should remember that even after loosing the war against the Turks, it was Eleftherios Venizelos, who proposed Ataturk as a candidate for the Nobel Peace Prize?

Genocide - a cheap word

keep peddling your bullshit, maybe it will attract enough flies...remember to close your mouth though, their unhygienic

Edit ------------------------------------------------------

yes, well done on helping to kill women and children.