The "Turkey" already in Europe

I started this thread to compile "good indicators" to combat the constant wishful thinking of certain sectors in this forum over imagined benefits of Turkey entering the European Union. Instead of their utopian tendency, I would like to highlight current actions, interactions, behavior between the EU and Turkey, and the Turkish immigrants already residing there.

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Live Births 2005
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France 774,355 [1]
Germany 685,795 [2]
Turkey 1,361,000 [3]
Greece 107,545 [4]

[1] http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abo.../ab-france.html
[2] http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abo...-frgermany.html
[3] http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abo.../ab-turkey.html
[4] http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abo.../ab-greece.html
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QUOTE (Searchlight)

Turkish extreme nationalist protest against Armenian genocide
Searchlight, June 2005

Turkish fascist Grey Wolves celebrated 24 April, the worldwide day of commemoration by Armenians population of the genocide against them by the Turks between 1915 and 1923, with a 300-strong "youth rally" in Utrecht.

...

The tense situation in Turkey is now finding its reflection in the Netherlands, not least in the efforts of the Grey Wolves to exploit the nationalistic atmosphere. They still have an infrastructure in the Netherlands with 60 local branches nationwide. Some of them obtain funds from the local councils, and all kinds of support still comes from their parent organisation in Turkey, the Nationalist Action Party (MHP). The size of the Grey Wolves membership in the Netherlands is variously estimated at between 12,000 and 30,000.

The TFN, for its part, seeks to segregate the Turkish community from the Dutch community on ethnic lines, using a strong racism and claiming Turkish superiority

In this context, the expression "Proud to be a Turk" is not an innocent patriotic outcry, but represents a feeling of being part of the most superior "race" in the world and a willingness to shed blood for its honour. ...

...

In Utrecht, half of the three hundred people present were women and the meeting had a strongly propagandistic and military character with children being handed out toy guns and teenagers showing off their martial arts skills. Between performances by some of the most infamous Turkish nationalist singers, chants like "Martyrs die but the nation never" could be heard.

...

QUOTE (Belien Turkish fascist opportunistically shifts to Socialist European)

Turning Red: Immigrants Tip the Balance in Belgian Local Elections
...
Ironically, as I pointed out earlier, in their efforts to counter the indigenous “racists” and “fascists” of the VB [Vlaams Belang], the Socialists and Christian-Democrats do not hesitate to put far-right Muslim candidates on their electoral lists. Some of them, such a Murat Denizli, a member of the Turkish racist and fascist organization Grey Wolves which assassinates Socialist councilors at home, have now become Socialist councilors in Belgium (Mr Denizli was elected for the Parti Socialiste in the Brussels borough of Schaarbeek).
...

QUOTE ("Hurriyet insults and Necla Kelek")

German Edition of "Hürriyet" Newspaper Smear Campaign against German-Turkish Female Activists
...
In the past, even German politicians have been targeted by campaigns in "Hürriyet," which translates as "freedom": Current Chancellor Gerhard Schröder, for example, was slandered while serving as Minister President of Lower Saxony when he supported a stop on the deportation of Kurdish refugees back to Turkey.

Cem Özdemir, a former Bundestag representative (Green Party) of Turkish background, was also targeted when he demanded equal rights for the Alevitic religious community and criticized Turkey for its position on the Armenian genocide.

A visit with the German President

The regular attacks began when the editor of "Hürriyet," Aydin Dogan, was invited to talks with then-Federal President Johannes Rau in the summer of 2001. Representatives of the Federal Press Office, the Interior Ministry, and Rau himself spoke with the Turkish media czar, who also owns several television stations and other newspapers such as "Milliyet" and the sports magazine "Fanatic".

As the story goes, the Germans expressed their interest in fair reporting on German politics and politicians according to the standards of Western journalistic ethics. ...
"The unbelievers are bad"

The Hamburg sociologist Necla Kelek explains the newspaper's reaction: "Turks are not allowed to say anything bad about the Turks, and especially not to a German." She says the idea of the Muslim "umma" is always present: "We Muslims are good, the unbelievers are bad."

Kelek, however, thinks that after forty years in Germany, the Turks "must finally accept German society as their own, instead of helping themselves to economic advantages and the social system and cursing everything else."
...

QUOTE ("AKP Defense Minister Vecdi Gönül")

...
During the ceremony honoring the 70th anniversary of the death of Ataturk (d. Nov. 10, 1938), organized at the Turkish Embassy in Brussels, the Turkish Defense Minister, Vecdi Gönül ...

“Would it be possible today to maintain the same national State if the existence of Greeks in the Aegean region and of Armenians in several regions of Turkey had continued as before?” Vecdi Gönül asked. “Remember, before the republic, Ankara was composed of four sectors: Jewish, Muslim, Armenian, and Greek... When I was governor at Izmir I realized that the Izmir Chamber of Commerce had been founded only by non-Muslims. There was not a Turk among them.” ...[1]
... "Even today the struggle in Southeastern Turkey is part of this process and we can not reduce its contribution to the process of nation-building, because of all those who consider themselves victims, particularly those affected by forced displacement."[2] ...

[1.] http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/3641
[2.] Fuller Greek transcript of this speech which includes omitted linkage to the current Kurdish issue

QUOTE ("Paul Belien")

The Influence of the Immigrant Vote on Belgian (and Dutch) Politics
The growing share of the immigrant vote has begun to affect the positions adopted by Belgian politicians on various issues, from the wearing of headscarves to the Armenian genocide. On June 3rd, during the past election campaign, Ergün Top, a Turkish born Belgian politician who is a local councillor in Antwerp, declared that if there were a war between Belgium and Turkey, he would join the Turkish army and fight Belgium.

Top holds the Belgian as well as the Turkish nationality. He is a Muslim but belongs to the Christian-Democrat Party. He was standing for a seat in the Belgian Senate. During his campaign among Belgian voters of Turkish origin, he indicated that he feels more loyalty towards Turkey than towards Belgium. The message was well received by his audience, who feel the same. Mr Top said that he approves of Cemal Cavdarli, a Socialist member of the Belgian Chamber of Representatives who went to serve in the Turkish army while he was a member of parliament in Belgium.

Ergün Top is a top advisor of Yves Leterme, the leader of the Belgian Christian-Democrats and Belgium’s likely next Prime Minister. Top prides himself on influencing Leterme’s position on the Armenian genocide. ...

As a base for possible comparison during WWII Greek Americans initiated the Greek War Relief Assocation[1] to help provided humanitarian assistance to their beleaguered countrymen back home many of whom where literally starving. They stopped this aid when America entered the war against the Axis to exclusively bolster this war effort.
Source:
Saloutos, Theodore. The Greeks in the United States (Harvard University Press, second printing 1975) pp. 349-350, 433.

[1.] In the name of Greek-Turkish friendship, various Turkish groups have claimed credit for this aid in saving Greeks when the Greek Americans payed for the supplies and arranged Turkish shipping(for a time, before switching). See the related thread: Kurtuluş Vapuru

You have never been to Turkey.

greekturkish/laugh.gif

@ Blistanbul:
What do you think tourists know about any country they visit. They just stay in the ghetto of hotels, restaurants, tourist traps. They spend the great majority of their interactions in making one-sided monetary exchange(spending only) with a subset of the population that overwhelmingly knows English and that is dependent on such income for their livelihood. Tourists on their few days off from work only convert into full time consumers in a foreign country to convince themselves something changed in their lives, to deceive themselves that they experienced a novel experience, but ultimately they just go back to work. Even back home they existed as consumers albeit part-time. The combination of being a full-consumer during the vacation and leaving their familiar surroundings allows them to self-medicate in an illusion that cannot be self-sustaining, but still each new vacation allotment they want to experience another illusion.

Would you really want someone like me in Turkey, anyway? greekturkish/devilsmile.gif

If ever that happened I would ask either Greeks in Turkey, or their refugee associations in Greece where the most fanatic nationalist or Mohammedan neighborhoods are located. Then I would wear a HUGELY ostentatious cross on my neck and walk around, secretly video-taping it. Then these same Greeks can translate the comments made by the frothy Turkish muslims for uploading to Youtube. While it probably would not be highly viewed it would be better than nothing and could be continually cited in the future when Turks kill more Christian missionaries, bible publishers, Christian journalists, etc. and maybe even newspapers would cite it in articles. Anti-Islam sites would defintely love such a video, Sarris could talk about it on Tomes (Τομές). It could start a whole trend of trying to find good indicators of what muslims actually think, rather than only accounting the small minority that know Western languages and work in the tourism industry.

Related video:
Filename: TrabzonFascistTurks.mp4 Size: 31.14 MB)
The next big budget "running zombie" movie(like Dawn of the Dead(2004), 24 Hours) in Trabzon. Crazy fascistic, running, zombie Turks frothing at the mouth and trying to attack people.
From the Thread: Group of PKK supporters get beaten in Trabzon

Man, this guy is non-stop. greekturkish/laugh.gif

What happened to you that you can't seem to get over, man? That you can't let out your anger and/or frustration whatever you do? That you have to write short essays as responses to one liners?

Seriously, not that I care about what you think or do, but this shit looks really really sad to me.

Alot of this is copy-pasted assemblages from past-written responses using the Notes feature in Opera.

QUOTE (Nikephoros @ June 06, 2009 05:35 pm)

@ Blistanbul:

Would you really want someone like me in Turkey, anyway? greekturkish/devilsmile.gif

The funny thing is I actually would.

I would like to be your tour guide as well greekturkish/bluebiggrin.gif

.

Not in the tourist style you've mentioned, but in the 'local' kind of way.

You would love Istanbul, it is to die for...... greekturkish/laugh.gif

I think Nike is afraid of going to Turkey, not because he fears violence...but that he'll like the place and people. Once you get to know them...it's not as easy to call them "frothy" anymore.

now that would be a bestseller of a book.
The adventures of Nike in turkey.
or Nikes Turkish dalliance
Or maybe Bliss and Nike do Turkey...or Turkey does Nike and Bliss

Or
Erdogan and Nike...a night to remember

This is the best indicator and it is a shocker:

Live Births 2005
-----------------------------
France 774,355 [1]
Germany 685,795 [2]
Turkey 1,361,000 [3]
Greece 107,545 [4]

[1] http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abo.../ab-france.html
[2] http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abo...-frgermany.html
[3] http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abo.../ab-turkey.html
[4] http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abo.../ab-greece.html

The hordes of Mordor continue to grow, but others have plans to open up Helms Deep for their immigration and eventual membership in the European Union.

so youre suggesting the turkish make babies delibarately to access membership in the union?

greekturkish/lol.gif

QUOTE (Nikephoros @ June 09, 2009 03:44 pm)

lol stfu you racist fox news bill o'reilly wannabe douchebag

http://www.wilsoncenter.org/index.cfm?fuse...essay_id=519403

QUOTE

One fact that gets lost among distractions such as the Times story is that the birthrates of Muslim women in Europe—and around the world—have been falling significantly for some time. Data on birthrates among different religious groups in Europe are scarce, but they point in a clear direction. Between 1990 and 2005, for example, the fertility rate in the Netherlands for Moroccan-born women fell from 4.9 to 2.9, and for Turkish-born women from 3.2 to 1.9. In 1970, Turkish-born women in Germany had on average two children more than German-born women. By 1996, the difference had fallen to one child, and it has now dropped to half that number.

QUOTE (o prosfigas @ June 09, 2009 09:04 pm)

so youre suggesting the turkish make babies delibarately to access membership in the union?

Dumb, dumb, Mr. quip, I just posted the stats and my biting commentary, you made that conclusion, not me. If Turkey alone is having more live births now than almost 1/3 of the European Union member states(in populus), who is gonna be integrating who? Also many of the births now in European Union member states are already from muslim immigrants. In Greece alone 140,000 illegal immigrants(mostly muslim) were caught last year(who knows how many were not caught).

The demographic trends are clear. It is just a colorful rosy ideological way of thinking does not want to keep the totality of such trends in mind and instead focus on the narrow perspective of institutionally adapting Turkey(which even in its narrow scope fails). But other things happen that this narrow perspective misses.

If Turkey was allowed in the European Union knowing these numbers, the replacement of European population by muslim surplus would be cemented further. Even if the Turkish immigration was restricted in Ankara's ascension, they still would have heavy influence to change this later in Parliament(as one of the most populus states) and the more myopic of the Euro-leftists and the muslims already in other European states would be too willing to help them.

QUOTE (Nikephoros @ June 09, 2009 09:25 pm)

If Turkey was allowed in the European Union knowing these numbers, the replacement of European population by muslim surplus would be cemented further. Even if the Turkish immigration was restricted in Ankara's ascension, they still would have heavy influence to change this later in Parliament(as one of the most populus states) and the more myopic of the Euro-leftists and the muslims already in other European states would be too willing to help them.

Not that it is important, if the majority of population of Europe is christian or muslim.

But I don't think there is going to be significant immigration to North Europe if Turkey joins the EU. When other southern european countries like Spain, Portugal and Greece joined the EU, the immigration to North Europe from these countries was actually reduced, not increased. Because of the better economic situation.

And the birth rates in these countries also used to be higher than in North Europe. Today they are more or less the same. The same thing will probably happen with Turkey. The birth rates in Turkey are already relatively low compared to global standards.

QUOTE (Afroasiatis @ June 09, 2009 10:08 pm)

Not that it is important, if the majority of population of Europe is christian or muslim.

That is only what you think because you have internalized a unique European bourgeoise ambivalence-hate of religion. Most Turks are pious and when polled state their dislike to even have infidels as neighbors, so they do not share the same feeling that "Christian or muslim it does not matter".

Current Turkish births are probably greater than Spain, Greece and Portugal combined when they entered the EU(too lazy to check). Further Turkey is from an alien cultural bloc which will only unite with this same bloc that exists as the fastest growing minority in the European Union. Current European Union countries share a Christian to post-Christian historical path and a Greco-Roman heritage, while Turkey is an anti-Christian country that is little interested in history before Islam came to the area.

Define an alien cultural bloc Nike