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Kayakiran- 06-16-2008
Russian archives refute Armenian “genocide” claims

A document in Russia's official archives has surfaced that shows Armenians carried out mass killings in 1915, and is one of the strongest pieces of evidence that reveals Yerevan's claims of "genocide" are nothing but a lie. (UPDATED)


Turkish academic, Mehmet Perincek, has uncovered a 65-page report while conducting research at the Russian State Military History Archives, Hurriyet daily reported on Monday. The report was written by Brigadier General Leonid Bolkhovinitov and sent to the Russian headquarters in Dec. 11, 1915.



"Armenian voluntary units had started violent slaughters against the Muslim people with racist motives," the report was quoted as saying by Hurriyet.



The Russian general also said in his report the information given by the Armenians "are politically-motivated" and did not reflect the actual situation in the region. He also named the incidents as, "The issue defined as the Armenian question."



"We shall not believe in the death tolls that the Armenians give. The number of missing people has been exaggerated in the memos distributed by the Dashnak party and there is no doubt that they are politically-motivated. Those Armenian gangs, who triggered the slaughters, are the ones who should be blamed for those missing," Bolkhovinitov said in his report.



He also accused England of provoking the Armenians to prevent a potential alliance between the Ottoman Empire and Russia. "Before that Turks, Armenians, and Kurds used to live in peace. Even the living conditions of Armenians were much better than Kurds' and Turks," he added.



This report is likely to create a new perspective on the Armenian claims, given the fact that Russia and the Ottomans were enemies during the late 1910s, increasing the importance of the report.



Turkey says parliaments and other political institutions are not the appropriate bodies to debate and pass judgment on disputed periods of history. Past events and controversial periods of history should be left to historians for their dispassionate study and evaluation.



However Turkey's efforts to carry a deeper investigation have yet to have a positive outcome. In 2005, Turkey officially proposed to the Armenian government the establishment of a joint historical commission composed of historians and other experts from both sides to study together the events of 1915 and to open the archives of Turkey and Armenia, as well as the archives of all relevant third-party countries and share their findings publicly. Unfortunately, Armenia has not yet responded positively to this initiative and Turkey's proposal remains on the table.



http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/turkey/9192242.asp greekturkish/hmmm.gif

















kvk1- 06-16-2008
Commons Sense Leads Swedish Parliament's Refusal to Define Armenian Case as Genocide

On June 12, 2008, the Swedish parliament, with an overwhelming vote of 245 - 37 rejected to a resolution that characterized the 1915 Armenian case as genocide. The decision of the Swedish Parliament followed long deliberations.

The resolution was rejected because: (1) the United Nations has never accepted the Armenian case as genocide; (2) the United Nations Genocide Convention does not apply retroactively to events before 1948; (3) there is substantial disagreement between experts regarding the events of 1915; (4) there is concern by experts about broadening the definition of genocide and overlapping with other crimes; and, (5) a legislature should not intervene in foreign affairs and disturb the Turkish domestic process.

ATAA President-Elect Gunay Evinch and 1991-93 Fulbright Scholar on the Armenian issue, commented that that in 1986 the United Nations considered the Whitaker Report on the Crime of Genocide, which attempted to slip in the Armenian case in a footnote: "That caused a substantial debate, the result of which was the UN's decision to `receive' rather than `accept' the report. Receiving is a diplomatic way of rejecting."

Evinch also reminded that in 1917, Sweden lead the formation of the Scandinavian Commission of Inquiry into allegations of Armenian massacres, and reports regarding that the Armenians had engaged in a massive revolt to assist the Russian invasion of March 1915. Similarly, in 1919 the India Muslim Commission of Inquiry was formed to report on the atrocities committed by the Armenian Revolt against Muslims in eastern Anatolia 1880-1919. Both Commissions were discouraged and closed by the British Empire.

The vast majority of experts on the Ottoman Empire reject the Armenian case as genocide -- Bernard Lewis, Guenther Lewy, Andrew Mango, Avigdor, Levy, Stanford Shaw, Masaki Kakiszaki, David Fromkin, Norman Stone, Edward Erickson, Heath Lowry, and Justin McCarthy, to list a few notables.

http://www.ataa.org/press/prl_061608.html

optimaton- 06-17-2008
QUOTE (Kayakiran @ June 17, 2008 12:55 am)
Russian archives refute Armenian “genocide” claims

A document in Russia's official archives has surfaced that shows Armenians carried out mass killings in 1915, and is one of the strongest pieces of evidence that reveals Yerevan's claims of "genocide" are nothing but a lie...

Well, if such a report exists it will definitely turn the Armenian version of the events in 1915 into dust. But until it’s actually authenticated and published, I don’t think you should get carried away just yet.

Surprise, surprise, I’m not convinced of the accuracy of Turkey’s tabloids (just like what's on your MFA's official website) especially what Hurriyet writes is identical to the current Turkish version and even goes beyond .

QUOTE
"Before that Turks, Armenians, and Kurds used to live in peace. Even the living conditions of Armenians were much better than Kurds' and Turks," he added.

Something that is insisted ad nauseum in here that Armenians and Greeks actually loved being second-class subjects of the Sultan, who had no desire for national awakening and self-determination, etc. But an Armenian revolt behind Turkish lines would have been encouraged (yes, it would have fitted well with the Ruskies' strategy whilst at war against Turkey you'd think) rather than condemned by the Russians.

Tsarist Russia was the most totalitarian and oppressive realm in Europe at the time. They were not even adverse to killing scores of their own people. Terms such as “racist motives” would have been alien to them. They were also quite the Orthodox fanatics and they would have expressed no love for a Muslim people over a Christian one. Also, at the time the aim of the Russians was the dismembering of the Ottoman Empire and their annexation of the Straits. Why would they be praising an empire they wanted to destroy? And how could they offer such a first-hand report when the killing/violence/rebellion (whatever you want to call it) happened on the other side of the front line.

But it’s this bit here that really grabbed my attention:

QUOTE
He also accused England of provoking the Armenians to prevent a potential alliance between the Ottoman Empire and Russia.


Does the author of this article even have the basic idea of that period history he is referring to? I seriously doubt it.

So, we’re talking about 1915, the middle of WWI. Turkey is on the side of the Central Powers. Russia is on the side of the Entente. Russia and Turkey are fighting it out in the blistering cold of the Caucasus. Meanwhile, there is stalemate along the western front whilst the Russians are getting clobbered by the Germans and Austrian-Hungarians in the eastern front. And we are to believe that the English WERE concerned that Russia and the Ottoman Empire might forge an ALLIANCE!

Anyway, if this report does exist and is worded as claimed by Hurriyet then it will definitely be a coup for Turkey and a huge blow to the Armenians.

Lethe- 06-17-2008
Armenians attacked to civilians with French military uniform too. in Dörtyol, (Heroic)Maraş, (Gazi)Antep, (Glorious)Urfa...

Kayakiran- 06-17-2008
QUOTE (optimaton @ June 17, 2008 07:32 am)
Well, if such a report exists it will definitely turn the Armenian version of the events in 1915 into dust. But until it’s actually authenticated and published, I don’t think you should get carried away just yet.

Surprise, surprise, I’m not convinced of the accuracy of Turkey’s tabloids (just like what's on your MFA's official website) especially what Hurriyet writes is identical to the current Turkish version and even goes beyond .


Something that is insisted ad nauseum in here that Armenians and Greeks actually loved being second-class subjects of the Sultan, who had no desire for national awakening and self-determination, etc. But an Armenian revolt behind Turkish lines would have been encouraged (yes, it would have fitted well with the Ruskies' strategy whilst at war against Turkey you'd think) rather than condemned by the Russians.

Tsarist Russia was the most totalitarian and oppressive realm in Europe at the time. They were not even adverse to killing scores of their own people. Terms such as “racist motives” would have been alien to them. They were also quite the Orthodox fanatics and they would have expressed no love for a Muslim people over a Christian one. Also, at the time the aim of the Russians was the dismembering of the Ottoman Empire and their annexation of the Straits. Why would they be praising an empire they wanted to destroy? And how could they offer such a first-hand report when the killing/violence/rebellion (whatever you want to call it) happened on the other side of the front line.

But it’s this bit here that really grabbed my attention:



Does the author of this article even have the basic idea of that period history he is referring to? I seriously doubt it.

So, we’re talking about 1915, the middle of WWI. Turkey is on the side of the Central Powers. Russia is on the side of the Entente. Russia and Turkey are fighting it out in the blistering cold of the Caucasus. Meanwhile, there is stalemate along the western front whilst the Russians are getting clobbered by the Germans and Austrian-Hungarians in the eastern front. And we are to believe that the English WERE concerned that Russia and the Ottoman Empire might forge an ALLIANCE!

Anyway, if this report does exist and is worded as claimed by Hurriyet then it will definitely be a coup for Turkey and a huge blow to the Armenians.

I'm not banking on the validity of these documents and I am not celebrating. I too would like to see these papers being published and authenticated. Hence my greekturkish/hmmm.gif icon.

I don't think the russians were praising or backing the Ottomans with this report. I think that perhaps they were actually reporting what they saw and experienced. If it turns out that the docs are real, I agree with you, it will turn the Armenian claims into dust. I tried to get some more info on the subject but came up empty handed.

Hopefully, time will tell. I would think that if this were true, the Turkish media would have taken and ran with it.

westerort- 06-30-2008
Any updates as of yet regarding the validity of these Russian documents?

Emre- 07-01-2008
QUOTE (optimaton @ June 17, 2008 11:32 pm)
Well, if such a report exists it will definitely turn the Armenian version of the events in 1915 into dust. But until it’s actually authenticated and published, I don’t think you should get carried away just yet.


QUOTE (Kayakiran @ June 18, 2008 05:56 am)
I'm not banking on the validity of these documents and I am not celebrating.  I too would like to see these papers being published and authenticated.  Hence my  greekturkish/hmmm.gif icon. 


QUOTE (westerort @ July 01, 2008 01:19 am)
Any updates as of yet regarding the validity of these Russian documents?

You guys are talking as if Russian sources haven't been used in Turkey's defense against the Armenian allegations before. I came across a few Russian lieutenant and colonel names (I will have to dig them up) in a few books.

I also believe Prof Ataöv has worked with Russian archives before.

Kayakiran- 07-01-2008
QUOTE (Emre @ July 01, 2008 09:43 am)




You guys are talking as if Russian sources haven't been used in Turkey's defense against the Armenian allegations before. I came across a few Russian lieutenant and colonel names (I will have to dig them up) in a few books.

I also believe Prof Ataöv has worked with Russian archives before.

It would be fucking great if some of this stuff was verified, but I haven't seen anything after this article was published. greekturkish/paperbag.gif

Emre- 07-01-2008
For it to go any further, the other camp has to react to it.

Have a read of this : Lieutenant Colonel Gryaznov.

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