Then I would say that the estimate is low.

Now you're talking.

My Greek reading skills are not the best around

No sweat bro.

Mavro, mate, let me correct your typical Greek mistake NO 1 :
Kurds, unlike the Turkish population of Greece, are not only concentrated in one area. They are spread all over the country and possess every single right any other Turkish citizen has. They are not discriminated against or singled out because of their ethnicity. As the result, we live with and talk to Kurdish people each day, funny ay…?

This is understandable. In the 60s, when Germany asked for working class contribution from Turkey, priority was given to those from the SE region. Many from the region were selected with the hope of integrating them with Western culture and bringing those values back on their return. Don’t forget, they were all on temporary ‘workers’ visas’ and the plan from the start was for them to return home. Obviously just about none has.

PKK extorted a lot of support from Europe, Germany being the hot bed. They even organized concerts with proceeds going to PKK.

Yes, they remained loyal to caliphate, but this was a hindrance during out Independence war, as the new Turkish Army was against the caliphate. Tegin touched on a very good point. Why would they assist the Kemal’s vision of Turkey when they were promised their own land in Sevres…? Most of the early uprisings had a religious reason, the abolishment of The Caliphate and they strongly rejected the new secular state . The ones that didn't, assimilated into the new TR and rose to the highest level, Presidency of TR.

Tell me, how do you fight terror…?

When the world rejoices caught and killed Al Qaeda terrorists, some choose to cry over dead PKK mutts. Who gives a fuck how they were killed, whether it was by a single bullet or a mortar attack…? You don’t wait for them to come out of a cave so you can shoot them, you demolish the cave with all you have. If they are burnt,

Some questionable methods were used, in the way of forcing the entire population out of villages near the borders. When you are infested with mosquitoes near a swamp, you drain the swamp out. If PKK didn’t surface and gather immense support outside our borders, that wouldn’t have been necessary.

On the other side of the coin, over a million Kurds from Iran and Iraq found refuge in Turkey. Our resident mutt is from Iran and made his way to Europe via Turkey. He regularly visits Turkey and apparently has family settled in Ankara. What does that tell you…?

You accuse Kurds like Dirii as well as the PKK of wanting to divide Turkey.

So how would this be different with what the TC's and TMT were striving for between 1964-74? Okay to divide another's nation but not your's?

And just to pre-empt you, that the GC's were committing atrociites blah-blah, the Kurds are making the same charge today.

Sure, the Kurds are treated perfectly, have every right allowed that any Turkish citizen has the right to. Infact one may say they are treated like Kings.

I suppose an armed struggle for an indepedent Kurdistan in south eastern Turkey exists only because the Kurds got bored of living their life of luxury.

Isn't that why we fought for independence in 1821.

The key point is that there is an area which has a major concentration of Kurds living in it. The point that you make about the Kurds being spread across the country is correct - and is often a fact that is ignored by most people - however the same can be said out the Irish population - most Irish live in the UK or USA. What is more is that a large number of Kurds - living amongst the Turkish majority population assimilate - This leaves us the question - what is a Kurd - If someone does not want to idetify as a Kurd - then he or she is not a Kurd. Many of the Kurds in western Anatolia have adopted Turkishness - Of course many have not. What is more - I don't believe that even the most extremist and uncompromising Kurdish nationalist - living in Eastern or Western Anatolia would make territorial claims on Central or Western Anatolia.

Now under law - who good friend here is correct - there is not law discriminating against a Turkish citizen per se. There is no law which says "No Kurds".

However, there are several legal and social restrictions on Kurds who want to peaceful express their identity. Still, I should not that under the AKP government restrictions have been eased.

1. There are still legal restrictions on the expansion of Kurdish language education - Children are not allowed to be taught any Kurdish in a formal -private -setting. Broadcasters cannot broadcaste Kurdish childrens programs and despite it not begin illegal - they have in practice not been able to broadcaste adult programs - then peope wonder why people watch the PKK channel - In short Kurdish still has too many laws preventing its use.

2. Given children Kurdish naes in more common nowadays - whoever - it is still restricted to a certain extent.

3. Turkish citizenship is still racialised - Gocmman for example must be of Turkish race - this a a tension between Turkish civic nationalism and Turkish ethnic nationalism.

4. Kurdish cultural association and human rights organisations are still under heavy police control.- even the anti PKK organisations.

The PKK did not simply extort support from the Euopean population - The Kurds that went to Europe organised and we effected by "Western" ideology - which made incline towards to Leftism - This resulted in the creation of a social network which was very powerful. It is not simply that they bullied the Kurdish and Turkish community abroad - it gained leadership and popularity -

The Ottoman army - not Turkish army -was not against the Caphate. Even at a leadership level. Recent work by Selim Deringil on the debates on this issue indicate that most of the leadership of the rump Ottoman state were against the aboslishment of the caliphate. It was a minority led by Kemal Pasha that pushed it through. What is more - during the war of independnece the main tool of propaganda was not Turkish nationalism - something the average Turkish peasant did not give a rats ass about - rather it was the ideal of saving the Caliphate from Western imperialism. There were some Turkic themes - however - the war was mainly a war for a Muslim Anatolian homeland.

PKK is not in the Al Qaeda range of things - they are more like the Tamil Tigers or IRA. They have a regional base of support and they are to a limited extent a mass movement. Thy have aims and are willing to work in the political process - whether we think that it is a good thing or not is another question-
Al Qaeda is a conspirtorial group - that lacks a fixed base of support and central command.

1. I don't think that we should be rejoicing when Al Qaeda people are killed. It does not solve the underlying problem. Sure - Al Qaeda people must be arrested and put on trial. However, killing them just creates more martyrs for the course. The US has followed the most aggressive and militaristic policy in face of Al Qaeda - where the heck has it got? Not far....

2. I don' think that killing the PKK militants to a man or woman will solve the problem - Turkey has played hard ball - but this policy does not seemed to have worked -

Come one - this is classic dellusion - I have no love for the PKK what so ever - but the fact of the matter is that you cannot run an insurggency with popular support. It does not matter how much foreign support you get. The point is that guerilla warfare reiles on winning the peasants over - the question should be - who did the PKK win the peasants over? That is who you drain the swamp - not by deporting villages - That creates more problems.

Ozal was a smart guy - he knew that if the Iraqi Kurds were forced to live onthe border of Turkey for ever they would be a new base of teh PKK... So he helped them out - no one does anything for nice reasons....

What does this have to do with Cyprus…?
If you want to drag it there and must have my opinion of the comparison, fine.

In Cyprus, we were able to do something about the situation. We went in took a 1/3 and it’s been that way since. If Kurds want to do something similar, that is fine as well. Let me remind you that, borders do not change by shaking hands, it takes a war for it to happen. Do not expect anything less than what happened to Greeks during our War of Independence. You decided to charge and take advantage of the situation, which resulted in all the Greeks of Anatolia being expelled.

Tell me thunderboy,
Since you seem to know so much about any issue relating to Turkey, what rights are the Kurds deprived of…?

Bingo mate, do not fuck around and dance around the bush.
Just come out and say that all is acceptable because they are fighting for their independence. Loss of Turkish lives is just collateral damage for the greater good of Kurds. Show your sympathy at free will rather than hiding behind smilies and tag games.

Kurdi,
You are muddying up the waters here. None of the foreign participants would have a clue of the inner workings of Turkey, PKK propaganda is much easier to digest for most. Your challenge to a few points I generalized for easier consumption will drag the core of this thread way of base. Read my earlier posts too see where I stand in general.

But I can’t let go a couple of things you said.

For me, PKK has no difference to Al Qaeda or IRA.
PKK's extortion tactics are well documented. What you are talking about is psychological exploitation.

What do you want us to do…?
Catch and release…?
This is not a freaken hobby.

That is not good enough, what about territorial claims on Eastern Anatolia…?

Yeah, we went over this before.
Thanks to Kurds, with their help we were able to gain our independence. Then we stabbed them in the back and shut them up by force.

I see, a Turk can never do the right thing.
If there were no threat of PKK, Özal would’ve let them pile up on the border, right…?

Kurdistani said:

Opened with a flourish, Turkey's Kurdish-language schools fold
The EU-prodded reform allowed private classes. But public-school instruction is still banned.

By Yigal Schleifer | Correspondent of The Christian Science Monitor

BATMAN, TURKEY – For years, Kurdish language instructor Aydin Unesi had to teach clandestinely throughout this city in Turkey's southeast region, home to the majority of the country's 14 million Kurds. But on April 1, 2004, he found himself presiding over the much-heralded opening of the first official private Kurdish language school here.
"We felt this was the moment, after 80 years of being prohibited, for this language to be permitted," Mr. Unesi says.



The euphoria did not last long. Although the school had a capacity of 480 students for each of its 10-week sessions, it enrolled only a fraction of that number. In early August, it closed with little fanfare, along with seven other Kurdish courses in Istanbul and southeast Turkey. [ Editor's note: The original version misstated when the school closed.]

For the government, which allowed the schools to open as part of a wave of European Union-prodded reforms instituted to strengthen the country's candidacy for membership - under discussion this week in Brussels - the closings are proof that Turkey's Kurds are not really interested in learning their language.

Kurdish language activists counter that the desire to learn Kurdish is there, but it must be taught in public schools - a practice that's still banned.

It's a debate that dramatizes Turkey's struggle to defuse tensions with the Kurdish community.

Beyond the now-closed private courses, there is still precious little space in Turkish public life for Kurdish. There are currently no private television or radio stations that are allowed to broadcast in the language, and Turkey's national television has programming in Kurdish for just 30 minutes each week. The language, meanwhile, is still banned for official uses.

"If you learn a second language, like French, it should lead to some benefit, but there's nothing like that with Kurdish," says Suleyman Yilmaz, director of the language school in Diyarbakir, another city in the southeast, where a four-story building painted pink and beige was rented out and renovated in anticipation of a flood of students that never came.

Still, in Diyarbakir and other places in the region, there is strong evidence of a thirst for Kurdish culture and language. In the Asanlar music shop in Diyarbakir, the racks are stocked floor-to-ceiling with Kurdish-language tapes and CDs, banned only a few years ago. Mustafa Orhanciftci, the store's owner, says 70 percent of the music he sells is in Kurdish. He also doing brisk business selling Kurdish-language movies, most of them low-budget productions recently made by local amateurs. "People want these movies in their language," he says.

Unesi says Kurds simply couldn't afford the money or time needed to take private instruction. "It would be better to teach Kurdish in schools." he says. "It's better to study when you're a child."

A coalition of Kurdish grass-roots organizations has already begun a campaign called "I want to be taught in my mother tongue," aimed at pressuring the Turkish government to institute Kurdish language education in public schools. The campaign's organizers say they have already collected more than 300,000 signatures.

Such an initiative has little chance of success, at least without strong pressure from the EU, says Etyen Mahcupyan, director of the Democratization Project at the Turkish Economic and Social Studies Foundation (TESEV), an Istanbul-based think tank.

Modern Turkey, built on the remains of the polyglot and multicultural Ottoman Empire, has long looked at the Turkish language as one of the keys to unifying the nation. "I don't think the officials will take it seriously. It is too political," he says.

For now, the issue of Kurdish language education seems to be back at square one, with neither private nor public courses offered.

"We fell for the government's trick," says Mr. Yilmaz, director of the closed Diyarbakir school. "As the director of this school, I'm telling you that this language will never survive only on courses like this."


If you build it, they will not come.

Nope... I know why. They're lacking outside support for the armed struggle(you know..like the one you're giving to kurds in Turkey) and a big spark to start the conflict. All the ingredients are there and I'm sure the Greek security forces' reaction will be no different than the Turkish ones when the bombs start to explode in your crowded major cities...how'bout that...eh

Sounds far fetched?

Mr. Cople doesn't think so

The Road to Peace in the Balkans is Paved With Bad
Intentions
by Gregory R. Copley*
Washington, DC: June 27, 2007

http://ahiworld.org/pdfs/Speech_Copley.pdf

The armed struggle stared all ready





Albania: overview

On 10 April several gunmen crossed into Albania from Greece and stormed a

border guard facility, killing two persons and seriously wounding three others

before returning across the Greek border. A group calling itself the "Northern

Epirus Liberation Front" (MAVI) claimed responsibility for the incident. It accused

the Albanian Government of violating the rights of the ethnic Greek minority in

Albania and berated Athens for not doing enough to support the minority. MAVI

also issued a pamphlet last fall announcing the commencement of an "armed

struggle" against Tirana and demanding, inter alia, the cessation of the

alleged "colonization" of "Northern Epirus" -- the Greek name for southern Albania,

which has a large ethnic Greek population -- by Albanians from the north. MAVI

was the name of an ethnic Greek resistance group in Albania during World War II

that operated first against the invading Italians and then against the Communists.

Press reports state that the group was disbanded in the 1940s, although

responsibility for the 1984 bombing of the Albanian Embassy in Athens was

claimed in its name.



http://www.tkb.org/MorePatterns.jsp?countryCd=AL&year=1994

LOL! . As a kurd poster on a Greek site, you must have the confidence and the comfort of being taken serious and correct about whatever you post here..esp, on the "kurdish/PKK issues"

I don't think even the Greek members will buy the stuff you post, but whether they react, it's a question of their honesty.

I'll just point out the most obvious BS of yours here and leave the evaluation of the rest of your post to them.

Here is something even they know you're BS ing about.

Is this guy's forfathers were Turk also?



That's only one of them, there are hudreds of thousands of foreigners who has taken Turkish citizenship after complying with the rules of becoming a citizen.


Ufak atta civcivler'de yesin...LOL!