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Zeus- 08-10-2008
QUOTE (Kayakiran @ August 10, 2008 04:51 pm)
Zeus said:




Yes, I agree that they have a right to a measured response, however, knowing Russia, they will treat the opportunity as carte blanche and turn Georgia into another chechnya. Hope I'm wrong.

And America would react any differently?

American accuses Russia of controlling its media, Russia now accuses western media of biased reporting, covering only one side. Both correct.

This just proves they are both as full of shit as each other.

Kayakiran- 08-10-2008
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26116598


Looks like Russia is taking advantage of the situation. This thing has only just begun and shit is about to hit the fan in the region. Poor civillians.

E.Iapetides- 08-11-2008
but why the hell did Saakashvili order his troops into Ossetia? And why now? Did he really believe that the Russians would stay still?

I do not think so. Saakashvili is not an idiot he knew perfectly well that the Russians would get into the fray. Ergo: To draw Russia into a war with Georgia and keep it occupied there was Saakashvili's and his American advisor's objective.

You'll see, Georgia will speak about ceasefire but continue to shell Russian positions and thus drag the Russians deeper into the mess. Why? To keep the Russians, the media and world diplomacy busy while the US attack Iran.

Mid last week the US and the UK set an immense armada consisting of 5 carrier
battle groups in motion towards Iran. This force is supposed to enforce a naval blockade. That amounts to no less than a declaration of war against Iran. Bush wont leave office before he gets that fire going

While everybody is looking at Georgia, the yanks are moving against Iran. The US-Iran war is eminent. US cronies such us the Gayreek navy set their assets in motion to replace US vessels that were drawn from other regions and moved to Iran. The Frigate Kunturiotis is en route to the Red Sea as we speak.

I really hope I'm wrong about this. But I think Georgia is just a diversion the real mess is about to start in Iran.




PS: Hi to all. Nice to be here with you.

Zeus- 08-11-2008
QUOTE (E.Iapetides @ August 11, 2008 07:06 am)
but why the hell did Saakashvili order his troops into Ossetia? And why now? Did he really believe that the Russians would stay still?

I do not think so. Saakashvili is not an idiot he knew perfectly well that the Russians would get into the fray. Ergo: To draw Russia into a war with Georgia and keep it occupied there was Saakashvili's and his American advisor's objective.

You'll see, Georgia will speak about ceasefire but continue to shell Russian positions and thus drag the Russians deeper into the mess. Why? To keep the Russians, the media and world diplomacy busy while the US attack Iran.

Mid last week the US and the UK set an immense armada consisting of 5 carrier
battle groups in motion towards Iran. This force is supposed to enforce a naval blockade. That amounts to no less than a declaration of war against Iran. Bush wont leave office before he gets that fire going

While everybody is looking at Georgia, the yanks are moving against Iran. The US-Iran war is eminent. US cronies such us the Gayreek navy set their assets in motion to replace US vessels that were drawn from other regions and moved to Iran. The Frigate Kunturiotis is en route to the Red Sea as we speak.

I really hope I'm wrong about this. But I think Georgia is just a diversion the real mess is about to start in Iran.




PS: Hi to all. Nice to be here with you.

Gayreek navy huh?
Are you that pagan queer on pontosworld?


Really, the US is sending FIVE carrier battle groups to Iran?

What's your source for this claim, the New World Order report ?? greekturkish/giggleghey.gif


http://www.news.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=38478
There was a big naval exercise off the US coast late last month.
Ever since, the conspiracy whakos who see WW3 about to kick off every time a soldier takes a step, have since come up with the idea that these ships are now headed to Iran to put in place a naval blockade.

Now the same source, New World Order Report greekturkish/faggot.gif, has come up with the idea that Kuwait has gone on war alert as the US led armada heads for the region.
And if you were having a good laugh so far, they have now decided that Russian Prime Minister Putin has ordered the Black Sea fleet to war alert(it was already on war alert since Georgia launched the attacks, and ships have been sent towards Georgia to put blockade a Port and prevent military supplies from entering Georgia), and the Urals military district to prepare for the defence of Iran.

Russia is not going to intervene when America attacks Iran.
Just like America isnt about to join Georgia in fighting Russia.

If America is about to attack Iran, the public is not going to know about it until after the war has already started.

Apparently, according to some "other" non-mainstream sources(at least slightly more credible then NWO Report which lacks all credibility), there were resolutions in the US House and Congress to authorise Bush to put a naval blockade in place.
But these resolutions were defeated. Would like to see if these resolutions exist.

Theres lots more stories on how America is planning on attacking Iran, even staging an Iranian attack on US war ships...

greekturkish/laugh.gif

LOS MAGANDOS- 08-11-2008
QUOTE (Zeus @ August 10, 2008 08:39 am)
Apparently Russia has imposed a naval blockade, but the Russian navy says it hasn't as it would mean war, and Russia is not at war with Georgia.

Georgia on the other hand has supposedly declared war, and the government declared a state of war for 15 days.

15 days? greekturkish/confused.gif



omg I just got a good laugh from world leaders.
They are all raving on about how Russia should respect Georgias territorial sovereignty, even our own PM Kevin Rudd who thinks Russia will take him seriously( greekturkish/bowrofl.gif ).
Why didn't the West respect Serbias territorial sovereignty? Fucking hypocrites.

2,000 dead in South Ossetia
Hundreds are buried in ruble still, especially in the hospital. The Georgians attacked a hospital, and the world sits by and condemns Russia?
12 Russian soldiers killed, 150 injured
34,000 refugees from South Ossetia so far
Russian black sea fleet is sitting just off Georgias maritime coast
The capitals has no water, no electricity, and food is running out

While I don't agree with foreign powers intervening and giving territories in sovereign countries indepencene(ala Kosovo and South Ossetia), personally right now I hope Russia rapes Georgia into the stone age. They deserve nothing less. They are basically committing genocide, and Bush and other faggot western leaders sit back and ignore it, instead playing the evil ruskies card.


Gotta love this world of ours. greekturkish/puke.gif


And now Abkhazia is mobilising against Georgia.
Georgia greekturkish/owned.gif by their own stupidity very soon I think.


Funny hopw you see Russian Soldiers in Ossetia as "Peace Keepers" and yet you see Turkish soldiers in Cyprus as an Occupying Army !


Zeus- 08-11-2008
Funny how you see Turkish occupation in Cyprus as "peace keeping", and American bombing of Serbia/Kosovo(which Turkey took part in) as acceptable, but when Russia is doing exactly the same thing America did over Kosovo, you cry foul.
Funny how you see Russia using a pretext to fully invade as wrong, but can't seem to see the same when it comes to America/NATO in Kosovo, and Turkey in Cyprus. At least I'm able to admit the wrongs of both sides, whereas your still having fantasies of Turkish peace operations. When have you ever been able to admit the Bosnians or Albanians or Croats did anything wrong? Never...I could post a recent article about mass graves of Serbs...but it would be a waste of time on someone as lost as you.

There actually WERE Russian soldiers in South Ossetia, deployed as peace keepers in the region. You do realise this don't you? What they and the reinforcements Russia sent in are doing now is obviously not peace keeping, but that doesn't change the fact they were there, officially as peace keepers.

Last time I checked, Republic of Cyprus had not been launching attacks against the occupied north. Turkish Cypriots had been crossing for years to work in the south, and returning to the north to sleep. So what are Turkish soldiers still doing occupying the north of Cyprus, defying UN Resolutions?

Arabas Perna- 08-11-2008
Now I've looked at the facts a bit more I'm not so criticative of Russia's actions and believe their reasons for entering were just. However I still think going beyond Ossetia and attacking Georgian civilian targets on Georgian soil is too far and I still harbour doubt about Russia's future territorial aspirations.

o prosfigas- 08-11-2008
God bless the brave Russian soldier

Kayakiran- 08-11-2008
QUOTE (Zeus @ August 10, 2008 08:58 am)
And America would react any differently?

American accuses Russia of controlling its media, Russia now accuses western media of biased reporting, covering only one side. Both correct.

This just proves they are both as full of shit as each other.

Correct me if I am wrong here, but I would liken Russia issuing Russian passports to south Osettians( clearly within Georgia territory) to Greece issuing Greek passports to Turks in Turkish Thrace. I am yet to be convinced that Russia is simply defending Osettia. More toward the truth would be that they are trying to annex the territory. Let's face it. Putin is an ex KGB agent that frankly, misses the glory days of the USSR's empire. Russian intrusion past the lines of hostilities in Osettia makes the annexation theory more viable in my book.


BTW: Did anyone see the footage of the Georgian president's face as he was running from the bombs this morning? Really sad.

Kayakiran- 08-11-2008
QUOTE (E.Iapetides @ August 10, 2008 11:06 pm)
but why the hell did Saakashvili order his troops into Ossetia? And why now? Did he really believe that the Russians would stay still?

I do not think so. Saakashvili is not an idiot he knew perfectly well that the Russians would get into the fray. Ergo: To draw Russia into a war with Georgia and keep it occupied there was Saakashvili's and his American advisor's objective.

You'll see, Georgia will speak about ceasefire but continue to shell Russian positions and thus drag the Russians deeper into the mess. Why? To keep the Russians, the media and world diplomacy busy while the US attack Iran.

Mid last week the US and the UK set an immense armada consisting of 5 carrier
battle groups in motion towards Iran. This force is supposed to enforce a naval blockade. That amounts to no less than a declaration of war against Iran. Bush wont leave office before he gets that fire going

While everybody is looking at Georgia, the yanks are moving against Iran. The US-Iran war is eminent. US cronies such us the Gayreek navy set their assets in motion to replace US vessels that were drawn from other regions and moved to Iran. The Frigate Kunturiotis is en route to the Red Sea as we speak.

I really hope I'm wrong about this. But I think Georgia is just a diversion the real mess is about to start in Iran.




PS: Hi to all. Nice to be here with you.

You may be right but let me ask you a question. Why would the president of any given country sacrifice his own country and infrastructure so the US and her allies can begin a war with Iran? I am hoping that you are very wrong. First we had the Iraq war on our borders, now the Georgian / Russian war all that is lacking is the Iranian war which leads me to the question of when Turkey is going to get pulled into this fucking mess...or rather, find the strength to stay out of it.

Kayakiran- 08-11-2008
PS: welcome to the forum. greekturkish/beerchug.gif

katastrof- 08-11-2008
This has already grown into a full-fledged Russian-Georgian war. greekturkish/gaah_opt_64.gif
According to today's NY Times, Russia bombed the airport at Tblisi (little damage), and bombed targets near the Abkhazia border. Is it an effort to break the Georgian military into full submission, or a direct attack at Georgian territorial integrity from all fronts? Hard to say.

The America-Iran theories have been out there for a while, whether they make sense or not depends mostly on the Senate, over which the White House has little control. It's pretty obvious the Bush administration has been itching to attack Iran, but whether they can do it is another story.

I've searched for Russian news sources, but couldn't find anything noteworthy, except slogans such as "we defeated USA, not Georgia" and the like. Armenian news agencies talk about the refugee problem and some the "Russian assault into Georgia" but not many more details. If you find good articles from Russian & Armenian news sources, please post.

NY Times:
user posted image


The following is NYTimes afternoon update.

QUOTE

Russia Presses Into 2nd Front in Georgia

By MICHAEL SCHWIRTZ, ANNE BARNARD and ANDREW E. KRAMER

user posted image

SENAKI, Georgia — Russian armored vehicles rolled 25 miles into western Georgia and took up positions at a military base here early Monday after issuing an ultimatum to Georgia to disarm its troops, along the boundary with the separatist territory of Abkhazia.

The Russian military advances represented the first time Russian forces invaded Georgia proper in the four-day-old conflict, which has unnerved the West and resurrected some Cold War anxieties.

Georgian officials said Russian troops had moved into several other cities in western Georgia, holding out the prospect that fighting could escalate on a second front. The Russian Defense Ministry said it was taking up the positions in order to prevent Georgian military units from regrouping and threatening their peacekeepers in Abkhazia. Russia has poured extra forces into the territory, where it now has at least 9,000 troops and 350 armored vehicles.

The conflict initially broke out last week around South Ossetia, the separatist enclave carved out of north-central Georgia. The level of fighting involved, however, remains uncertain amid the welter of inflated and contradictory reports from both Georgian and Russian sources. There are no independent observers with either country’s forces, and verifying claims about military activity was not immediately possible.

There were numerous but unconfirmed reports that Russian forces had occupied a major town just south of South Ossetia, Gori, which sits astride the country’s main east-west road and is home to a major military installation. Russia denied its troops were there.

In Senaki, south of the Abhaz border, two Russian tanks were parked inside the gate of a refurbished military base that until two days ago had been a Georgian military outpost. Russian soldiers who identified themselves as peacekeepers said that they now controlled the downtown base, located well outside the United Nations-designated zone in which Russian peacekeepers are allowed to operate tanks and heavy guns. An armored personnel carrier patrolled the village.

Residents said the Georgian military had fled without shooting. But bombs pounded the area, and residents said soldiers had told them they would not hurt civilians but would “annihilate” anyone in a uniform.

Along the road from Gori to Tblisi, about a 45-minute drive, residents were leaving Gori alongside Georgian military units heading towards the capital. Troops in desert gear rode in yellow municipal buses alongside columns of a dozen armored personnel carriers.

“We were the last to leave,” said an ambulance driver, who drove out hospital personnel as the Russians moved in. Speaking in Tblisi, he said it took them half an hour to take the city because the Georgian Army had pulled back. He showed video footage on his mobile phone of fire in the city. “We left behind all the equipment in the hospital and 80 bodies in the morgue,” said the driver, who declined to give his name.

President Mikheil Saakashvili addressed the nation, saying Russian troops had reached the main east-west road.

“The situation in Georgia is very difficult because Russia is doing everything possible to occupy the country,” Mr. Saakashvili told the Georgian Security Council.

He urged citizens not to panic and said Tblisi was not in immediate danger. “If Tbilisi comes under threat, I will inform the residents 12 hours in advance,” he said.

Twice during the day, Mr. Saakashvili fled a location for safety. One incident was in Tblisi, in which a plane flew overhead while he was on a conference call with reporters; the other was in Gori, when his security team suddenly rushed him away from a building as he was touring a bombing site.

Residents were also fleeing the port city of Poti, said Karina Tsotsoria, a Georgian woman living in Moscow, who said she had just spoken on the phone to her husband, Badri, who had fled their home when he saw television footage of approaching Russian tanks.

“He’s afraid,” she said. “We don’t know what their goals are. How can you be sure, when tanks appraoch your city, that they won’t shoot?”

The Russian ultimatum, issued by Maj. Gen. Sergei Chaban, commander of Russian peacekeeping forces in Abkhazia, called for Georgian troops to disarm in the Zugdidi District, along the border between Abkhazia and Georgia.

Russian officials say Georgia provoked the assault on its troops by attacking South Ossetia, causing heavy civilian casualties. The Kremlin said its actions since then were intended to strike at Georgian military forces that had fired on its peacekeeping troops in South Ossetia and it did not intend a broader offensive deeper into Georgia.

However, Georgian officials said that over the weekend Russia had expanded its attacks on Georgia, moving tanks and troops through South Ossetia and advancing toward Gori. That maneuver, the Russian bombing of Tbilisi, and then the occupation of a Georgian military base in Senaki seemed to suggest that Russia’s aims in the conflict after four days of fighting had gone beyond securing South Ossetia and Abkhazia to weakening the armed forces of Georgia, a former Soviet republic and an ally of the United States whose Western leanings have long irritated the Kremlin.

On Monday, in the conference call with reporters, Mr. Saakashvili said Georgian and Russian troops had fought fierce battles overnight as Russian tanks advanced toward Gori before being driven back, with heavy casualties on both sides. Russian planes also bombed targets across Georgia on Monday, including roads and bridges, he said, before fleeing to a bomb shelter because Russian planes were flying over the presidential palace in Tbilisi.

Explosions were seen in the fields around Gori around 12:35 p.m. Monday. There was no evidence of bombing in civilian areas of the town. But from high ground, plumes of white smoke and clouds on the outskirts were visible. It was unclear whether the explosions were caused by airstrikes or by shelling.

The French foreign minister, Bernard Kouchner, has been trying to arrange a cease-fire and Mr. Saakashvili said Georgia had signed one.

However, the Russian Foreign Ministry said it would agree to a cease-fire only if Georgia pulled its troops out of South Ossetia and signed an agreement banning the use of force against the territory. Mr. Saakashvili has made reuniting the territories of South Ossetia and Abkhazia with Georgia a centerpiece of his presidency.

On Monday, an Abkhaz official said that Abkhaz forces, backed by Russian paratroopers, would kill Georgian troops if they did not leave Kodori Gorge, the only part of the territory where Georgia has military forces. Abkhaz troops blocked the gorge and proposed the formation of a humanitarian corridor to allow Georgian troops and civilians to leave safely, the Abkhaz defense minister, Mirab Kishmariya, told the Russian news agency Interfax.

“If the Georgian troops don’t take advantage of this opportunity, then an operation to eliminate them will begin,” the minister said.

Russia’s escalation of the fighting, after Georgia offered a cease-fire and said it had pulled its troops out of South Ossetia, set the stage for an intense diplomatic confrontation with the United States.

The fighting raised tensions between Russia and its former cold-war foes to their highest level in decades. President Bush has promoted Georgia as a bastion of democracy, helped strengthen its military and urged that NATO grant the country to membership. Georgia serves as a major conduit for oil flowing from Russia and Central Asia to the West.

But Russia, emboldened by windfall profits from oil exports, is showing a resolve to reassert its dominance in a region it has always considered its “near abroad.”

The military action, which has involved air, naval and missile attacks, is the largest engagement by Russian forces outside its borders since the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Strong diplomatic warnings from Mr. Bush and European leaders have been ignored, underscoring the limits of Western influence over Russia at a time when the rest of Europe depends heavily on Russian natural gas and the United States needs Moscow’s cooperation if it hopes to curtail what it believes is a nuclear weapons threat from Iran.

Vice President Dick Cheney, in a telephone conversation with the Georgian president on Monday, said “that Russian aggression must not go unanswered, and that its continuation would have serious consequences for its relations with the United States, as well as the broader international community,” according to Mr. Cheney’s spokeswoman, Lea Anne McBride.

European officials also levied pressure for an immediate cease-fire and President Nicolas Sarkozy of France, which currently holds the rotating presidency of the European Union, could travel to the region as early as Tuesday.

“To try to finalize all the steps, we are taking around a document that has to be accepted by both sides,” he said.

Both Abkhazia and South Ossetia won de facto autonomy from Georgia in fighting in the early 1990s. The current fighting broke out last week in South Ossetia when Georgian troops tried to take the capital in what seems to have been a major miscalculation. Russia says it is acting to protect residents there and to punish Georgia for the assault.

Reports of the death toll varied widely, from the low hundreds to more than 2,000, but none could be independently verified. Russian officials say more than 30,000 South Ossetians have fled into Russia.

Andrew E. Kramer reported from Gori, Georgia; Anne Barnard from Moscow; and Michael Schwirtz from Senaki, Georgia. Reporting was contributed by Nicholas Kulish from Tbilisi, Georgia; Helene Cooper from Washington; Joseph Sywenkiy from Gori, Georgia; and Katrin Bennhold and Tom Rachman from Paris.


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/12/world/eu...georgia.html?hp

Zeus- 08-11-2008
QUOTE (Kayakiran @ August 11, 2008 11:23 pm)
Correct me if I am wrong here, but I would liken Russia issuing Russian passports to south Osettians( clearly within Georgia territory) to Greece issuing Greek passports to Turks in Turkish Thrace. I am yet to be convinced that Russia is simply defending Osettia. More toward the truth would be that they are trying to annex the territory. Let's face it. Putin is an ex KGB agent that frankly, misses the glory days of the USSR's empire. Russian intrusion past the lines of hostilities in Osettia makes the annexation theory more viable in my book.


BTW: Did anyone see the footage of the Georgian president's face as he was running from the bombs this morning? Really sad.

Yeah but the South Ossetians are ethnicly different to the Georgians, same as Abkhazia. The Turks in Turkish Thrace are Turks.

I have no sympathy for the Georgian president. I saw his interviews on cnn, nbc and whatever. He started a war with Russia, and when he realised he poked the bear too hard, he ran to the media and started talking out his ass about the big mighty Russian neighbour attacking his little democracy. If he was that concerned about Russia attacking his little democracy he shouldn't have pissed off Russia.

I think Russia, as its peace keepers were attacked and killed, has every right to retaliate against Georgia proper. Not invade it, but strike its military bases and disable the Georgia military capabilities. It's the logical response that any country would dish out.

But I do agree it is probably more then just about protecting South Ossetia. Although I think that is part of it, be it genuine or a convenient excuse. I think its more about Russia drawing a line in the sane and saying enough is enough with the NATO expansion eastwards into its sphere of influence and the US missile shield. The Russians want to show they are serious and wont be walked over, but rather, if America wont back off, they will do the walking over.
There is also the pipeline...

Btw, I heard the PKK had blown up a section of that pipeline in Turkey?
South Ossetian forces also threatened to blow part of it up.


E.Iapetides- 08-12-2008
QUOTE

zeus

Are you that pagan queer on pontosworld?


Yes I am a pagan and I do post occasionally on pontosworld. As for the queer part: It is pointless to answer personal insults through an impersonal medium such as the internet. But should you ever come to San Antonio/Texas. Please let me know. I would be more than happy to arrange a meeting and thus provide you with the opportunity to deliver your statement in person.




E.Iapetides- 08-12-2008
QUOTE

Kayakiran


You may be right but let me ask you a question. Why would the president of any given country sacrifice his own country and infrastructure so the US and her allies can begin a war with Iran? I am hoping that you are very wrong. First we had the Iraq war on our borders, now the Georgian / Russian war all that is lacking is the Iranian war which leads me to the question of when Turkey is going to get pulled into this fucking mess...or rather, find the strength to stay out of it.


Actually, if you think about it, Saakashvili and his Neocon backers can only win in this game. Loose Ossetia and Abchasia? Thats something he didn't have to begin with.
If the Russians had not reacted he would have gained Ossetia. Now the Russians did obviously react. But how far can they go? Occupy Georgia and engage in prolonged warfare against an US equipped guerrilla force? That's the last thing the Russians need.

Only possible outcome: the Russians occupy Ossetia and Abchasia. As soon as the hostilities cease the US cavalry appears on the scene and is greeted enthusiastically by the Georgian populace. The US sets up camp in Georgia builds a couple of bases to secure the remainder of Georgia against "Russian Aggression". Georgia gets fast tracked into the NATO, US and European capital pours in like never before and Saakashvili is the grea-*test*-('") Georgian Leader since the days of queen Tamar.

The US doesn't need the lame excuse of "Iranian ICBM" to push for the installation of missile defenses in Poland. The Europeans would fall in line and welcome the militarization of Eastern Europe as a deterrent against Russia.

By the way, the Iranians, exaggerations aside, don't have anything ballistic that can reach beyond Ankara. Intercepting Iranian missiles in Poland is indeed pointless.
And that Radar in the Czech republic! Guess what: it overlooks 100% of Russia's European airspace and exactly 0% of Iranian airspace.

But less we forget, Iran isn't going to have any capabilities. The US is en route to enforce a Naval blockade on Iran, UK and France are already in it. The rest of Europe will follow. The doctrine of "With us or Against us" is very compelling in a polarized environment.

Now lets look at the timetable:

1. Intense consultations between Israel and the US took place during the last month.
There was an unusual number of high profile meetings. The US moved high performance X-Band tracking radars to Israel in June.

2. The Israeli Airforce rehearsed runs against Russian made Air defenses over Crete (compliments of the Gayreek Airforce which operates the same systems that are used by Iran)

3. The blockade fleet is in motion >click here<

4. All political parties in the US are on board. Resolution 362 >click here< maybe still hovering in congress but thats due to some noise made by grassroots activists. Other than that: Congress loves it and it is a matter of time until it is sneaked through. Not that it is binding or necessary. But it reaffirms, no it urges the President to act on Iran and thus insures Bush against possible accusations that he's leading the country into a new adventure at the end of his term. He can say: Congress urged me to do it.

Over all I think it likely to see the whole shit blow up within the next couple of months.

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