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Zeus- 08-09-2008
You know what's interesting though..for years the US has been selling weapons and training the Georgian military. There are 100 or so Americans there right now for that purpose.
On top of that, Russia put through a resolution in the Security Council that would require both sides, South Ossetia and Georgia, to renounce violence. It was those exact words, the renouncing violence, that led the US, UK, and France to reject it.

And then, when shit hits the fan and Russia retaliates after 10 of its peace keepers are killed, the USA calls on Russia to show restraint.
Why doesn't the USA think Georgia should show some restraint?


Debka is about as reliable as any other propaganda mouth piece.


And Mavro, it was Georgia which started it this time. The Russians from what I've heard, had held talks with both sides and brokered peace. A few hours later Georgia launches a massive assault on Tskhinvali. I'm sure you can imagine the outcome of hours upon hours of mlrs and artilery barrages on a city full of people. Supposedly it is devastated. Russia took a lot of flak for Grozny. Lets see how much the White House dishes out to Georgia over this.

Tskhinvali is a civilian center. Why did they attack it?
Remember the Serbs who attacked cities and towns...the west painted them as genocidal maniacs intent on killing everything non-Serb.
Georgia attacks a city in a break away province, Russia retaliates, and it's the Russians who are the evil goblins from hell?

But then again...Georgia wouldn't have done this if it wasn't for the Americans arming and training them for just this scenario.


Ah..oil and gas..makes you feel all warm and fuzzy doesn't it.

optimaton- 08-10-2008
QUOTE
Russian tanks roll into Georgia as cities burn

Hundreds of bodies lie in the streets of war-torn Caucasus towns. What began as a dispute over the sovereignty of a tiny enclave in a former Soviet republic has escalated, first into a brutal assault and then into a counter-invasion. Old hatreds have been rekindled, as the spectre of another Chechnya rises from the rubble.

Two war-torn towns deep in the Caucasus yesterday presented mirror images of violence and retaliation. In the Georgian town of Gori, 50 miles from the capital, Tbilisi, buildings burned and scores of bodies lay in the street following a Russian bombardment. A trans-shipment point for Georgian soldiers heading to South Ossetia, by yesterday Gori was coming under sustained Russian aerial attack.

As Georgian soldiers fled their base in the town for the fields and woods, it was the civilians who bore the brunt as a bomb hit a block of flats, leaving them to cradle their scores of dead.

There are no such photographs yet from Tskhinvali, capital of the separatist enclave of South Ossetia. It was attacked on Friday by Georgia, an assault aimed at wresting back the region of fewer than 100,000 people from de facto independence. Many hundreds were killed and most of the city's buildings devastated. Instead, it was yesterday left to witnesses to describe what had happened, even as Russian troops fought to consolidate their hold after driving the Georgians out of the northern suburbs.

'The night before, a Georgian attack was finally repelled,' said Olga Kiriy, a reporter for Russian TV Channel 1 who spent Friday night sheltering with civilians in a basement during the Georgian assault. 'They have left burnt-out tanks. They were firing at us for a long time. The retreating Georgians left a sniper, but the Russian troops have knocked him out. Just now we were shelled again by Georgian Grad missiles.'

But amid the chaos, one thing seemed clear - Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili's extraordinary attempt to reconquer the separatist region of South Ossetia appeared to be unravelling, as Russian planes bombed ever deeper into Georgia and his troops were sucked into street-to-street fighting.

In Tskhinvali - briefly occupied in its entirety by Georgia's US-trained troops - furious fighting was continuing between Russians in the city's north and Georgian forces in the south and centre.

And as Georgia's attempt to capture South Ossetia ran into the sand, the country was plunged into chaos as Saakashvili called for a ceasefire, his government declared a state of war and the National Security Council said it might call for foreign military intervention.

Meanwhile separatists from Georgia's Abkhazia region also entered the fray, announcing that they had started operations to force Georgian troops out of the disputed Kodori Gorge with aircraft and artillery fire.

Georgia's worst nightmare has come true. Russian tanks and armoured cars, packed with soldiers, rolled over the border, through the Caucasus mountains, on to Georgian land, and Russian fighter jets were streaking across the skies.

For most people in Georgia, this was a Russian invasion, regardless of the fact that Georgia had initiated the fighting. 'This is an overt, open attempt to destroy Georgia, to bring Georgia to its knees, to put an end to Georgia's independence,' said Saakashvili, in one of a series of televised speeches to his increasingly fearful people. 'Unless we stop Russia, unless the whole world stops it, Russian tanks will go to any European capital tomorrow,' Saakashvili warned. It was a note of desperation.

Inevitably it has been civilians who have borne the brunt of the conflict, with both sides levelling accusation of atrocities and ethnic cleansing.

What seems beyond doubt is that the Georgian assault that began on Friday - after two weeks of increasingly heavy skirmishes between separatists and Georgian forces - was massive and indiscriminate as volleys of Grad missiles rained down on Tskhinvali and neighbouring villages.

Refugees also claimed that civilians were shot, kidnapped and burnt to death by rampaging soldiers in areas occupied by Georgian troops. Russian television has broadcast claims that Georgian troops 'executed' injured Russian peacekeepers based in Tskhinvali who were captured during the initial assault: 10 peacekeepers were killed and up to 150 injured during the rocket and air attack.

Among those fleeing was Lusya Khoriyeva, 40, a housewife from Tsunari in South Ossetia, one of an estimated 4,000-5,000 refugees who have arrived in the Russian North Ossetian capital of Vladikavkaz, in the past two days.

'I spent three days in our basement with two of my neighbours,' she said yesterday. 'The Georgians were bombing from the air and with Grad missiles. Then their tanks rolled into the village at 3am on Friday. People shouted, "Run, run!" We crawled out of the basement. Our Home Guard fighters were running too: their ammunition was finished. I saw one man hit by a rocket. It took off his head and splattered it against a wall.

'We crawled to a field of wheat. A shell landed near me, but did not explode. Another fell in the wheat and set it on fire. My robe was burning. I could hear girls screaming: "Don't kill me!" The Georgians were rounding them up. We escaped beyond the field. I came here in a car with 15 people in it. My son, my husband and my daughter are there. I don't know what has happened to them.'

Alisa Mamiyeva, 26, an English student from Znaur region, added: 'Georgian soldiers flung open the doors of our houses, marched in and destroyed everything. Women were hiding in barrels of salted cheese to avoid being taken.'

Another woman from the same area said: 'They are going from door to door, killing. A few of us escaped in a car but my brother and my aunt and uncle are still there.'

Zarema Kochieva, 45, the owner of a small shop in Tskhinvali, managed to flee with her two daughters to Vladikavkaz on Thursday. 'My husband stayed behind to fight,' she said. 'Our men have only automatic rifles against tanks. He told me he ran into our apartment. A Georgian tank saw him and fired at our apartment block, destroying half of it. There are constant firefights. I think my brother may be already dead.'

Anatoly Kabisov may not have been the first victim of South Ossetia's dirty little war; it seems certain he will not be the last. But he is emblematic, at least, of how, in a few short days, it spiralled out of control. In a conflict where truth and blame have been hard to determine, how he died represents the complaints of South Ossetia's Russian-speaking separatist movement in the run-up to war.

On the night of 1 August, they say, Kabisov, a separatist 'policeman' from the village of Mugat, was killed by Georgian fire from an outpost near the village of Dvani. As his comrades took his body to be buried, Georgians opened fire on the funeral procession as well.

Georgia has its own stories to explain the collapse into violence on Friday as the world sat down to watch the Olympic opening ceremony in Beijing. The day before Kabisov died, according to Saakashvili, separatists exploded a bomb next to a Georgian police car in the village of Eredvi, wounding six.

But if one thing was certain in Tskhinvali before the outbreak of war, it was that separatist leaders and their people were united in one certainty - if Georgia attacked, they would not be deserted.

'All we see is Georgia preparing for another war. But we won't be alone,' Boris Chochiev, the rebels' deputy foreign minister warned The Observer before the bombing in Eredvi. 'It would be a war of the Caucasian peoples against Georgia, and Russia would be obliged to protect its citizens. About 98 per cent of South Ossetians have Russian passports.'

'Stalin divided Ossetia between the Russia and Georgia, but you cannot split one heart in two,' 76-year-old Lev Valiev said in what was once Tskhinvali's sleepy main square. 'We should be reunited, like Germany was, and that means joining Russia. And if we have to fight for that, it would be the Caucasus versus Georgia.'

While the first statement has proved brutally true, the threat of the second is looming as across the Caucasus fighters have volunteered to join on the Russian side. In Chechnya, pro-Kremlin leader Ramzan Kadyrov offered his fighters as unlikely peacekeepers, despite their reputation for kidnap, torture and murder to quell a rebel insurgency. In Abkhazia and Dagestan, other volunteer units were forming, while Cossacks were also flocking to the cause.

And it is precisely this that may now be Georgia's grea-*test*-('") problem - that it has unleashed a wave of violent hatred against it across the region.'

'The West and Nato back the revanchist policies of Georgia. But in the Caucasus you can't arm one side to the hilt and expect the other side to take it,' Abkhaz foreign minister Sergei Shamba in the separatist capital of Sukhumi, warned before the outbreak of war.

For its part, Tbilisi insists there can be no compromise over South Ossetia being part of Georgia. Historically, however, the Ossetians have always been more allied to Russia than those who resisted the expansion of the Russian empire into the area in the 18th and 19th centuries, with many fighting alongside the Russians against neighbours who had long been rivals. Ossetians also allied with the Bolshevik forces when they occupied Georgia in the early 1920s.

As the Soviet Union disintegrated and Georgia declared independence, the South Ossetians and Georgians fought over Tskhinvali in a conflict that led to South Ossetia's de facto independence.

Since then, a stalemate has persisted in a tiny region where two thirds of the population are separatists, many holding Russian passports, and a third consider themselves Georgians.

In November 2006, separatists voted to secede while Georgians voted equally as emphatically to remain. While compromise seemed impossible, it was the arrival of Saakashvili on the political scene that changed the dynamic.

One of Saakashvili's promises since becoming president had been to re-integrate South Ossetia and Abkhazia into Georgia. The separatists, he said, could enjoy almost unlimited autonomy - but not independence. It was not enough.

'He seems to have flipped,' said James Nixey an expert on the Caucasus at the Royal Institute for International Affairs. 'He has walked into a great bear trap. It is not that he was unprovoked. But it seems he has, in 24 hours, scuppered all the hard work he had put into pursuing Nato and EU membership.'

It is precisely this that has acted as the dangerous accelerant, pushing Russia and Georgia ever closer to war.

Nixey sees in Saakashvili a man of contradictions. With his fluent English, he appears remarkably Western and cautious, but in his native 'Georgian speaking to other Georgians', Nixey observes, he sounds like a hardline nationalist. 'Even his friends,' he adds, 'see him as something of a loose cannon.' But if Saakashvili - perhaps prodded by advisers who had persuaded him that South Ossetia could be quickly retaken and the Russians fended off by the US - has made a historic mistake, Nixey does not absolve the Russians from responsibility for goading Georgia.

'Russia has been waiting for this to happen. They had put enough of a mechanism in place that, if they needed to take over, they could do it very quickly. They have made that clear. They have been making bilateral deals with the "government" of Abkhazia, too, over exploration rights and cutting off Georgian exports such as wine and cutting flights.'

That phoney war was been swept away by the fierce heat of the fighting as Tskhinvali has crumbled between the two sides.

'There is a massive bombardment that has been going on between the city's north and south,' Mikhail Lebedev of Russia Today, told The Observer by telephone not far from Tskhinvali.

'It has not been retaken. There are Georgian troops with tanks in the town's centre and Russian forces on their way to meet them.

'We were in a village close to the town earlier and saw many civilian buildings destroyed. It looks like a Swiss cheese. The university and hospital have been destroyed. I just spoke to the Russian commander in the town and he says there have been very serious civilian casualties.

'Where we are we can see more Georgian troops driving into town. Seven truckloads a few minutes ago. We are anticipating very serious fighting.'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/10/russia.georgia1

optimaton- 08-10-2008
So we know it was the Georgians who started it. And they obviously aimed at ethnic-cleansing to force as many Ossetians into Russia, hence the brutality of their military campaign. But is Saakashvili so stupid to think he can take on the Russian bear or that the Americans would be wiling to risk war with Russia? He actually reminds me of Gruevski. Both are populists though corrupt and shady characters whom think because they have their noses firmly up George W's backside they can piss off whoever they please.

But I wonder if this is the way of a new order, the big powers using small, lackey states to do their dirty work; proxy states to fight their proxy wars.

bukefalos- 08-10-2008
according to news agencies, georgia has redrawn her troops this morning.


Zeus- 08-10-2008
QUOTE (bukefalos @ August 10, 2008 09:28 am)
according to news agencies, georgia has redrawn her troops this morning.

lol do you blame them? It was probably their generals and commanders who decided that, not the president who is the real lunatic.
They were facing Russias 58th army.
The Russians stormed in with tanks and heavy armour, the Georgians were going in on pickup trucks(theres actually a photo of a column of pickups loaded with Georgian soldiers on the back).

Zeus- 08-10-2008
Apparently Russia has imposed a naval blockade, but the Russian navy says it hasn't as it would mean war, and Russia is not at war with Georgia.

Georgia on the other hand has supposedly declared war, and the government declared a state of war for 15 days.

15 days? greekturkish/confused.gif



omg I just got a good laugh from world leaders.
They are all raving on about how Russia should respect Georgias territorial sovereignty, even our own PM Kevin Rudd who thinks Russia will take him seriously( greekturkish/bowrofl.gif ).
Why didn't the West respect Serbias territorial sovereignty? Fucking hypocrites.

2,000 dead in South Ossetia
Hundreds are buried in ruble still, especially in the hospital. The Georgians attacked a hospital, and the world sits by and condemns Russia?
12 Russian soldiers killed, 150 injured
34,000 refugees from South Ossetia so far
Russian black sea fleet is sitting just off Georgias maritime coast
The capitals has no water, no electricity, and food is running out

While I don't agree with foreign powers intervening and giving territories in sovereign countries indepencene(ala Kosovo and South Ossetia), personally right now I hope Russia rapes Georgia into the stone age. They deserve nothing less. They are basically committing genocide, and Bush and other faggot western leaders sit back and ignore it, instead playing the evil ruskies card.


Gotta love this world of ours. greekturkish/puke.gif


And now Abkhazia is mobilising against Georgia.
Georgia greekturkish/owned.gif by their own stupidity very soon I think.

Arabas Perna- 08-10-2008
QUOTE (Zeus @ August 10, 2008 08:39 am)
Apparently Russia has imposed a naval blockade, but the Russian navy says it hasn't as it would mean war, and Russia is not at war with Georgia.

Georgia on the other hand has supposedly declared war, and the government declared a state of war for 15 days.

15 days? greekturkish/confused.gif



omg I just got a good laugh from world leaders.
They are all raving on about how Russia should respect Georgias territorial sovereignty, even our own PM Kevin Rudd who thinks Russia will take him seriously( greekturkish/bowrofl.gif ).
Why didn't the West respect Serbias territorial sovereignty? Fucking hypocrites.

2,000 dead in South Ossetia
Hundreds are buried in ruble still, especially in the hospital. The Georgians attacked a hospital, and the world sits by and condemns Russia?
12 Russian soldiers killed, 150 injured
34,000 refugees from South Ossetia so far
Russian black sea fleet is sitting just off Georgias maritime coast
The capitals has no water, no electricity, and food is running out

While I don't agree with foreign powers intervening and giving territories in sovereign countries indepencene(ala Kosovo and South Ossetia), personally right now I hope Russia rapes Georgia into the stone age. They deserve nothing less. They are basically committing genocide, and Bush and other faggot western leaders sit back and ignore it, instead playing the evil ruskies card.


Gotta love this world of ours. greekturkish/puke.gif


And now Abkhazia is mobilising against Georgia.
Georgia greekturkish/owned.gif by their own stupidity very soon I think.

It's painfully obvious that your support of Russia stems from the simple fact that you feel a closer link to them (strengthened by your mentioning of Serbia).

In the smaller picture Georgia may have been the ignition of hostilities with it's incursions into south Ossetia, but in the bigger picture we see Russia as being the main culprit.

You mentioning of the hospital attacked by Georgians is so pointless because you fully well know that the same has happened to Georgian civilian targets. To point out one sides shortcomings in a situation like this and take to 'sides' is completely stupid because you're clearly taking in the news you want to and disregarding the rest.

Classic methods of a trigger happy kid excited to take a side in a conflict and who can't be satisfied with taking a reflective neutral ground and looking at facts from various sources before deciding who is right and who is wrong. greekturkish/shakehead.gif

and you say 'gotta love this world of ours' greekturkish/clap.gif

Zeus- 08-10-2008
I actually DO NOT support Russia.
Why would I feel closer to Russia, because they are Orthodox? Georgia is Orthodox too. I could care less.
I don't think South Ossetia or Azbhakia should get independence.
My comment on Serbia..well, when Serbia fought to keep it's territorial integrity intact, why was the west against that? Why was Serbia the evil ethnic cleansers in Kosovo?
Georgia does the same, attacking cities full of civilians, but its ok? Russia is involved much in the same way America is/was in Kosovo, but Russia is the bad guy?
Western hypocrisy.

QUOTE

In the smaller picture Georgia may have been the ignition of hostilities with it's incursions into south Ossetia, but in the bigger picture we see Russia as being the main culprit.

What?

QUOTE

You mentioning of the hospital attacked by Georgians is so pointless because you fully well know that the same has happened to Georgian civilian targets. To point out one sides shortcomings in a situation like this and take to 'sides' is completely stupid because you're clearly taking in the news you want to and disregarding the rest.


Last time I checked, on both Russian and Western news, Russia had not bombed a hospital in Georgia or targeted civilians. It has bombed military bases and air fields.
Pretty pointless at this stage to believe every claim from either side of who has attacked what, don't you think? Pretty hard to deny seeing a hospital blown up on tv though. Unless South Ossetia has perfected CGI.
Have you seen the Georgian president on tv? The guy sounds like a lunatic.
Why isn't the western media covering the South Ossetian or Russian side? Why only show us what a lunatic has to say?
Have you been watching both sides of the coverage? Or just the Turkish coverage which is relaying the Georgian claims?

QUOTE

Classic methods of a trigger happy kid excited to take a side in a conflict and who can't be satisfied with taking a reflective neutral ground and looking at facts from various sources before deciding who is right and who is wrong.


You know, you're selective picking of posts to respond to, is getting tiring. This is the second time now.
Why skip straight to me, and claim I'm taking sides, when you're buddy LosM has clearly, undeniably taken Georgias side?
Try not taking sides your self.


Oh and as Georgia is claiming Russia is attacking its civilians, where's the proof? Some lunatic claiming it on every western news network that will give him an interview?

We have seen some buildings on fire. A few people bloodied with wounds/cuts/etc.
Don't you find it odd, how in images we have seen from Iraq/Afghanistan, when America bombs a building, the building is completely destroyed and lying in a pile of ruble...yet the so called attacks by Russia on buildings, the buildings are still standing? What have Georgia discovered some super strong metals that can withstand an air strike?
By comparisson, what you wont see on western news, hundreds if not thousands of wounded South Ossetians, and their capital city in ruins.

optimaton- 08-10-2008
QUOTE (Arabas Perna @ August 10, 2008 07:49 pm)
It's painfully obvious that your support of Russia stems from the simple fact that you feel a closer link to them (strengthened by your mentioning of Serbia).

In the smaller picture Georgia may have been the ignition of hostilities with it's incursions into south Ossetia, but in the bigger picture we see Russia as being the main culprit.

You mentioning of the hospital attacked by Georgians is so pointless because you fully well know that the same has happened to Georgian civilian targets.  To point out one sides shortcomings in a situation like this and take to 'sides' is completely stupid because you're clearly taking in the news you want to and disregarding the rest.

Classic methods of a trigger happy kid excited to take a side in a conflict and who can't be satisfied with taking a reflective neutral ground and looking at facts from various sources before deciding who is right and who is wrong.  greekturkish/shakehead.gif

and you say 'gotta love this world of ours'  greekturkish/clap.gif

Georgia has excellent relations with Turkey and supports Azerbaijan in its dispute with Armenia. But I suppose this doesn’t swing your opinion, right? greekturkish/ladida.gif

As Zeus posted, Georgians are, just like Russians and Serbs, Orthodox. Their church is actually connected with the Greek Patriarch rather than Moscow. So I have no obvious reason to support Russia over Georgians. Indeed, as a Greek I should be supporting them whilst making comparisons with Cyprus at the same time. greekturkish/nixweiss.gif

Anyway….

QUOTE
In the smaller picture Georgia may have been the ignition of hostilities with it's incursions into south Ossetia, but in the bigger picture we see Russia as being the main culprit.


This is exactly what is being touted by everyone: Georgia started the war but Russia is still to blame. Are we really that stupid to believe such nonsense.
The main culprit here is Saakashvili for foolishly instigating the conflict. Georgia militarily has buckley’s chance against Russia and yet they decided to “retake” South Ossetia and on the day of the start of the Olympics. Why?

I think Saakashvili is someone's useful idiot.

One of the “theories” being touted around the Internet is an agreement with the Americans that Russia can force Georgia into its sphere of influence as long as they promise not to get stick their noses in Iran in the instance the yanks and Israelis decide to bomb the crap out of it.

A “conspiracy theory” it may sound but might very well be the most plausible scenario in a conflict that really doesn't make that much sense.

turkkan- 08-10-2008
QUOTE
Last time I checked, on both Russian and Western news, Russia had not bombed a hospital in Georgia or targeted civilians.



The vast majority of russian targets have been against civilian targets according to teh western press and there is a lot of photographic evidence out there to prove it. Eitherway turkey has invested billions in georgia so lets hope the status of those investments are not affected and we will get contracts in the rebuilding of their army and country.

optimaton- 08-10-2008
QUOTE (turkkan @ August 10, 2008 10:49 pm)


The vast majority of russian targets have been civilian against western press and there is a lot of photographic evidence out there to prove it. Eitherway turkey has invested billions in georgia so lets hope the status of those investments are not affected and we will get contracts in the rebuilding of their army and country.

You'd better move quickly before Halliburton gets all the contracts.

Emre- 08-10-2008
QUOTE (Zeus @ August 10, 2008 08:04 pm)
Why would I feel closer to Russia,

Because Georgia has good relations with Turkey.


QUOTE (Zeus @ August 10, 2008 06:39 pm)
personally right now I hope Russia rapes Georgia into the stone age. They deserve nothing less.

QUOTE (Zeus @ August 10, 2008 Hour and a half later)
I actually DO NOT support Russia.

user posted image


QUOTE (Zeus @ August 10, 2008 08:04 pm)
Pretty hard to deny seeing a hospital blown up on tv though. Unless South Ossetia has perfected CGI.

Where did you see this...? It is only reported by a Russian news agency.


Georgia was way out of their depth with their bold move, but don't sell Russians to us as knights in shining armour doing their best to save humanity. Wasn't there UN presence there before the Georgian attack, what are their reports...? Did they report any attempts at genocide as you like to put it...?

Zeus- 08-10-2008
That was said heat of the moment when I had seen on the news they had targeted a hospital. Like it isn't enough they were targeting civilians, they targeted those who were sick in hospital unable to flee. Weak.

I'm not going to buy into the anti-Russian sentiment put out by western media, not because Russia is Orthodox, not because Georgia has ties to Turkey, but because of the biased shown by the west, when they did the same thing Russia is doing(bombing a sovereign country in support of separatists).

The peace keepers that were there were Russian. I don't know if they were under the UN or not. But they were not armed with tanks and fighter jets. They were attacked. A dozen killed. Over 100 injured. Surely that gives Russia the right to respond, in the eyes of the west? Or is the right to defend ones people only reserved for America and Israel who indiscriminately kill civilians in the name of "peace", democracy and every other bullshit excuse they can think of.

Shoe is on the other foot now, and the west can't open its mouth without being hypocritical.


Kayakiran- 08-10-2008
QUOTE (optimaton @ August 10, 2008 07:33 am)
You'd better move quickly before Halliburton gets all the contracts.

Halliburton is too busy in Iraq and Afghanistan. greekturkish/bluebiggrin.gif BTW: Did I mention that I honked my horn at a Halliburton car? When the passengers turned to look at me I gave the finger in American and in Turkish. They looked at me like a cow looks at a passing train.

Kayakiran- 08-10-2008
Zeus said:


QUOTE
Surely that gives Russia the right to respond, in the eyes of the west?


Yes, I agree that they have a right to a measured response, however, knowing Russia, they will treat the opportunity as carte blanche and turn Georgia into another chechnya. Hope I'm wrong.


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