Good Reply

I like this guy...
way more tolerant than me, but i agree with his principles !!

the last paragraph is totally true.

Of course it can be achieved, it just becomes extremely difficult in the realm of an internet forum, where anonymity pretty much rules. I also agreed with all the points you made about Ottomans, so what is it exactly that I don't accept...?

Yes, the language is always the first thing that is brought up.

Turkish Republic’s official language has been Turkish since foundation. This official language has gone through extreme reforms to take its current shape, even the alphabet was changed. As was with all of his reforms, Ataturk’s aim was to unify the new Republic’s citizens with a single language. In short, the whole nation’s language was changed. As a Turk of today, do you think you have much hope of reading or understanding Ottoman Turkish...?

The brief ban on Kurdish you are talking about served no purpose, didn’t benefit anyone. Not many people in Turkey even debate this anymore. Yet, the first argument is always the language ban, followed by cultural restrictions and economic conditions. Yeah right, like during the 10 year ban, no one in Turkey spoke Kurdish, they suddenly stopped. Kurdish culture was always oppressed, that’s why in my high school years during 80s, all my folklor teachers were Kurds, teaching their regional dances. I was donning the şalvar every so often, but people like you have us believe that we were performing in our track suits. Oh and the economics, the poor region was suffering all the while rest of Turkey were having caviar for breakfast. Forget South East for a moment, have you ever been in a public hospital in Istanbul...?

In any regard, I heard all about Turkish Governments’ shortcomings many times and you won’t hear me object to most of them. But, I’ve just about had a gutful of people of your ilk depicting the Kurds as long suffering saints. They have been involved in politics for decades, SODEP and SHP were rife with Kurdish politicians and today we even have PKK in the Parliament. They are a part of Turkish Republic in every aspect imaginable, so what exactly is your point...? Get it all off your chest mate.

I should have edited the beginning of the message when I read your later comment. My fault.

The Anatolian Turkish "folk" were never forced to change their language. We cannot keep an analogy between the change from Ottoman Turkish (which is really not the language of the general public anyway) to modern Turkish, and a "desired" change of language from Kurdish to Turkish. Very, very off comparison. Not to mention the timing of both events.

Also, about the alphabet change: do you know the literacy rate of Anatolia at the time of the language reform? Most of the rural folk couldn't read in the first place, and latin alphabet was already known among the non-rural folk (through the popularity of French), so the alphabet change didn't prove much of a problem (also, it is probably why it could happen overnight, so smoothly).

Of course they didn't stop talking Kurdish. As if you can ban people speaking whatever language in their own privacy.

I am not talking only about the "public speaking ban" of the military junta (which is awful enough in its own right). I am talking about the long-lasting state policy that attempted to eliminate the speaking of Kurdish altogether. Haven't you heard of the boarding schools controlled by the army, forced population movements, the propaganda to portray speaking of Kurdish as "shameful"..., list goes on.

I don't know what you are trying to pull here when we know, that it has always been official state policy that "there are no Kurds". We also know the ridiculous theories produced, most of them "officially", that Kurds are "mountain Turks", that the word Kurd comes from the "kart-kurt" sounds made when you step on snow etc... Yes, not any more, this isn't done, but the remnants of these policies still echo in today's society. Just read around, even this forum is filled with racist comments agaiinst Kurds. Kurdish is still viewed "alien" in many parts of the society, most importantly by the army and the police, which keep hindering the practice of EVEN the recently granted freedoms (elected Kurdish courses and language schools are notable examples).

This is getting too long. I take it that you mean well, but you might truly be uninformed about the whole list of such occurrences. I don't blame you, since one doesn't learn much from the Turkish media (ever heard of article 301?). I have a list of published articles someplace, if you want to read more, I'll be happy to share.

Briefly, Kurdish language IS oppressed in Turkey, and is being oppressed even today. Don't dare and try to downplay this. As a positive note, yes, things are improving.

To complete this argument: I already said that the economic side of things is a different story. The Turks living in SE Turkey are not richer than Kurds, but they never had to deal with the same shit Kurds did. And, the rest of Turkey isn't eating caviar, AND I've been to many public hospitals. None of this is any justification. I suggest you look at the language & education policies in Northern Iraq, poorer than any place in Turkey, and see what they are doing.

Why not? Because you agree with government policy or because you just don't want to object?

Here's one for you, I'm glad you agree.

i dont remember a muslim newspaper editor being recently murdered in Greece. Nor do I remember three muslims in Greece being cut to pieces after 2 hours of torture.

do u?

You will see a lot of racist comments on this board and they won’t be solely reserved for Kurds. Are you offended...?

Kurdish problem in Turkey goes back to the foundation of the Republic. If Ataturk is your hero for engineering the Turkish revolution, you are in a bit of a predicament here. Because, you see, he reformed and governed the country a good deal, for which a portion of Kurds had problems with then, and some still do today.

See, you are coming in here and speaking as if we were lost without you and none of the points you make were known. Yes, I know about the literacy rate of Turks back in 20s, I know about the article 301, mountain Turk theories, etc... These were discussed in the past and I made my views known then. So let me recap it for you in regards to where I stand in general.

Kurds along with many different ethnicities were brought under the same umbrella and accepted as one = A citizen of Turkey. All these people were considered equal and lived under the same laws. These laws were pretty liberal at times and unfairly strict during other times, but they were unfair to all of Turkey, not just the Kurds.

Turkey adopted an official language for a reason. Our nation was in wars for over a decade and formed by millions of people from different regions taking refuge in our current borders. It had to have a common language, so the new and reformed centralized education system could work. You can’t educate a whole nation and break the taboos of religious hold without a common language, especially when you have minimal to no resources. Huge steps were taken in the early decades and the gain was proportionate.

As for 80s, it’s sad to see Turkey go down that path, however it was never about just the Kurds. Right and left had the fiercest friction since 50s and the whole Turkey paid the price. The fear of Soviet influence prevented us from establishing the ‘demokratik, laik, sosyal hukuk devleti’ and opened the path wide open for the right to share the spoils. It goes all the way back to closure of village institutions by the so called “democrat” party because it just wasn’t in their best interest for the folk to get enlightened and educated. This is where I do NOT agree with many of past governments’ policies and the Kurdish issue is only a small part of it.

So, feel free to “enlighten” us about the suffrage of Kurds, just make sure you don’t thread on the PKK propaganda.

We're talking about Kurds, not anybody else. If you are telling me "get used to it, buddy", I say to you... whoopdiedoooo!.

Why a predicament? Recapping what I said about him, he is my hero, and his image is used today to establish a "kingdom", and on top of that, I'm behind my previous post. What isn't clear here? Are you stereotyping me somehow?

No. None of that. It's an internet forum. Things are discussed, and after a while the same things are re-discussed, but with some new people that MAY bring some new ideas & viewpoints. If not, forums die [on a side note, I think this one seems to be dying]. I'm pretty sure the forum wasn't lost without me, but to be honest, you yourself seem pretty lost [judging mostly by your la-*test*-('") activity].

If you say you already discussed all of this, then why are you still giving me the same tired arguments? If you are all the way enlightened about this issue, then why are you telling me "we don't speak Ottoman Turkish anymore, how about that?" [for which I was nice to you about, but frankly it is... whatever].

What I am trying to tell you is that Kurdish was and is being oppressed, and THIS fact threatens the unity of Turkey. It's not PKK that is the biggest danger of all. It's the oppression of Kurds, and the man that keeps saying "freedom to Kurdish is a compromise against PKK" that feeds separatism. Don't you agree?

Finally, none of this is PKK propaganda. Stop the stereotyping. This is the third time at least.

P.S.: And first of all, relax a little bit kardesim. If you go as far as suggesting a PKK connection with me, there's a chance you might be getting mad. Ok

Perfect post indeed. Some additions...

Public speaking ban on kurdish hasn't been applied only between 1982-1991. It was applied by Inönü in 1940's too. But no need to go that far. In 2002 lots of university students who only signed a petition for asking government to give elective kurdish language classes in schools were banned from school for 1-2 terms. I'm talking about thousands of students who just "dared" to sign a paper. Still today, If you're in prison and your mother/grandmother can only speak kurdish, you can't speak them on the phone or speak with them when they visit you. (You can speak with your own language if you're a German)

You can also enter Turkey if your name is William. But a few weeks ago a 7 years old german citizen of Kurdish origin named Welat wasn't let to enter Turkey because of the W letter in his name.

İbrahim Ayhan from DTP is jailed for 6 months for playing a kurdish song during his propaganda speech before the elections. Mayor of Diyarbakır Sur municipality was penalized for printing a brochures about hygene, organ donation, historical monuments of Diyarbakır etc. in Turkish, Kurdish, Assyrian and Engish.

These actions of government marginalizes Kurdish. Kurdish speaking people were being attacked time by time in different corners of Turkey. KURDISH LANGUAGE and CULTURE are OPPRESSED in TURKEY. Kurds are facing lots of discrimination in public offices in TURKEY. You don't have to be a Kurd to see and object these, putting racist glasses off is enough.

What are we discussing here...? State policies dating back to 20s or the coup policy of banning Kurdish...? I gave you my argument for the necessity of the earlier state policy in adopting an official language, because you are talking about the “long-lasting state policy” and what “has always been official state policy”, etc... I couldn’t give a toss about what language people speak at home, on the street or what publications they read in which language.

Also, did I accuse you of making PKK propaganda...?

Do you have links for these Dome...?

Sure mate...

On Welat case:
http://www.radikal.com.tr/Default.aspx?aTy...8&CategoryID=97

I couldn't find a mainstream newspaper article for Kurdish ban during Inonu era but i can give you a book's name...

http://www.ideefixe.com/Kitap/tanim.asp?si...ZRU6P4PEECT9N05

One final note about this hero of mine. I wouldn't believe everything I read about Ataturk; so much about him is manufactured and so much is hidden. It is recently argued that he talked about Turkey as "the home of Turks and Kurds", and that he went as far as suggesting autonomy for the Kurds. Also that he used the term "Kurdistan" freely to mean the geographical area of SE Turkey. Here:

http://www.habervitrini.com/haber.asp?id=203070
http://www.radikal.com.tr/haber.php?haberno=204424

I'm not too worried about Mustafa Kemal. But Inonu... I'd give half the rest of my life to know the "exact", and true history of the Inonu period.

Any reading suggestions on Inonu period, especially the transition to multi-party period, etc...?

Ti no capisce. Why do you people waste your time with this idiot. You are all beasts of burden. Niki, seni kosareken siksinler emi? Translation: Fuck you running.

Why do you, dude?

Anyway, we're not talking about Niko's post. Topic was hijacked long ago.

First of all, hello everybody.

Well the topic was actually dealing about the following problem:

" Christians = traitors, the prevalent Turkish stereotype"

but strange enough it ended up with the endless quarrel about Kurds and Turks, who are both non-Christians by the way....

Taner Akcam, who happens to be the cousin of my elder uncle's wife, touches a very acute problem and yet he exaggerates as usual in an "Ardahan-ish" manner and turns the issue to an unsolveable matter.
I dislike his "we did such and such" style and I dislike his dishonest approach to almost every issue he comes close with; but actually I don't expect very much from a person who is constantly lying about his ethnic origin, just to have a knock-out argument at hand, whenever he needs it.
Whatever, that's an other story....

To come back to the topic:

it is true that Christians in Turkey face difficulties at times, which Muslims and even Jews usually don't.
For example it is almost an impossible thing for a Christian Turk, meaning a Turkish citizen of Armenian or Greek background, to become a high ranking police or military officer.
It is also true that for example Greek and Armenian men are rarely send to South East Anatolia, where the struggle against the PKK usually takes place. Many men find this exclusion degrading.
Although there is no law to forbid those aspirations to Christian Turks, Christians are also excluded from positions at the high courts.
It is more or less an unwritten law, that everybody knows.
Maybe this exclusion indeed somehow reflects the paranoia, that members of the Christian minorities are a threat to the state, however reality teaches us,
that it's not the few Greeks and Armenians in Turkey, which are a threat to the state and consitutional order, but the Islamists of Turkish and Kurdish origin.
Up to a certain extend Christians are viewed as "untrustworthy" by the state, yet the word "traitor" seems a bit too harsh.
It's about a lack of trust towards the Christians in regard of it's inner mechanisms.
However there has never been a fixed suspicion towards fellow citizens of Christian origin within the Turkish people.
Sure we had our dark and shameful moments also (like the 6-7 September excesses) but those were fortunately exceptions.
The common Turkish soul doesn't usually harbour racist feelings.

I believe that the Turkish state is doing a big mistake by not allowing Christian citizens to participate in it's most vital mechanisms, since -ironically enough- those who really adhere to the principles of the Turkish Republic are -according to my own experiences- Greeks and Armenians.

While many Turks try to spare their boys a military service in South East Anatolia, many young Armenian men voluntarily apply to go there. With this they show a level of following "traditional Turkish values" like "fighting for the fatherland" that many Turks don't in the meanwhile.


I think that the reduction of the number of Christians in Anatolia is the most important factor, that Islamism is rising so fast in Turkey. Some may disagree but I doubt, that anybody could speak of a "moderate Islamic State" in regard of Turkey, if- let's say- one-third of the population was Christian and/or Jewish. I think that the situation of Turkey would be a different one also, since nobody would dare to neatly seperate the people as "believers" and "unbelievers" just by the fact of wearing headscarv or not.
So maybe it's time to think about calling those brothers and sisters back, who left Anatolia from 1923 on to now and improving the situation of our minorities.

With my best regards to all

A balanced person.Welcome Klarceti.