Zeus

if one thing is clear its any criticism of Israel will earn you the anti semitism tag...by the myriad of apologists for the Israeli state...thats how nicely freedom of speech has been shit on when it comes to Israel....

hands of Israel and the jewish state or we'll tar you with being a racist...its enough to make you sick...but they can roll over the prostate Palestinian people and nation with their merkava's without one guilty feeling and were supposed to keep silent...

@Deman

Sorry but I neither trust pure arab sources as I also don´t trust pure jewish sources.
For that simple reason I gave you an independant mixed arab/jewish source..
In real it can be estimated than more than a half million jews lived in the todays region of israel before the exodus began.
And over a million arabs.
But the problem is even much deeper..

Anyway.
As a lots of people I know you also pretend to be not a jew hater..nevertheless you doubt the 6 million victims and also you underestimate the jewish numbers of the people who lived in palestina prior to the exodus.
30.000??
Are joking??
I can show you even arab sources which give the numbers of at least 200.000-300.000 jews prior 1948!
You also talk about jewish conspiracy plany like the "worlds zionism" etc while it is well known that there is very well the other side of the iraeli society which is in real one of the percentual biggest peace movement of a country which is in war time conditions for decades now.

For me it is clear that you my friend Deman belong to the people who pretend to be "non racist" but believe almost everything negative they hear or read without to do their own deeper research and analyses.
Sorry to say..and you are free to proove me wrong.

You should look at the ottoman sources and extrapolate from there.

no offense Mavro, im not too concerned or care what you think i am or not.....

if we want to sling names about i can easily say your just another Jewish apologist, someone who acts as a friend to Jews either out of hate for arabs or fear of being labeled anti semite for criticizing the Israelis ....but as i said i am not too concerned who you are or what you think File....not cause i dislike you.....personally i think your an ok guy....

but i stand by what i feel and or think, and to hell with what others feel or think....i dont change my mind or point of view to please others, or like most our of fear of criticism...

do you want me to be honest? i don't care about Jews anymore than i do about Palestinians or Egyptians or Italians and so on...i love my race, my people above all....but i hate injustice, and what was done to the Palestinians is an injustice unrivaled in the modern era....and by a people who suffered a holocaust, who above all should have never stooped to such levels, having supposedly suffered so much...

Mavro, if you read my source properly, and simply did not ignore it as a biased source, or cause it doesn't fit into your personal view of the issue, you would see that Ben Gurion, the Israeli Prime Minister also verified the figure the site puts forth as the number of Jews in Palestine in 1914...i can find more sources, independent British sources which also come close to that figure...but i believe you would not accept those either ...cause it doesn't back up your view on the issue...

the point Mavro in the end is this....that the West, and in particular the Colonial British powers allowed the Jews to migrate en mass into Palestine, allowed to them take land that did not belong to them, to take it away from Palestinians, to take advantage of a poor semi nomadic people driving them off their ancestral lands, all cause the Jews claim Palestine, according to them and you, as the land god gave to them....well the Old -*test*-('")ament said so, so it must be true hey Mavro?....

world Zionism? when did i insinuate that? i said pan Zionism.....it is an official movement, check even a shitty source like Wikipedia for a meaning Mavro....at the time it was a movement back to Palestine for the jews, a creation of a homeland...it is accepted official history....the 1948 jewish state was dreamed off a hundred years ago before it became a reality....

i am not criticizing this....like the Filiki Eteria with the Greeks, who planned to liberate and Greece and create a new nation...

But Pan Zionism today means supporting the current extreme Israeli Zionist state.....shutting down any criticism from western powers, media etc....and propping up a fascist unjust state, which persecutes the Palestinians.....

i don't personally subscribe to the view that there is a shadow group of jews who control the world, who want to destroy Greece blah blah and blah, which you seem to accuse me off...I know there are well connected Jewish businessman and or politicians around the world that support Israel.....better than most other races do....but that accusation can be leveled at Greeks, Turks with our foreign communities and lobby groups....once more you accuse me of something i did not mention and or insinuate....

see mavro? the tag anti semitism, your belief i am one compels you to try and peg me, to fit me into the round hole of your accusation, and in doing so pronounce me guilty of allot more than i really am....

The vast majority of Israelis are non racist or Zionists? really mavro? so by your assumption if this was so, and since Israeli is to an extent a democracy....why has the government bot fallen, changed its tact? cause in reality the majority are either active Zionists, or sympathetic to the policies of the hard core regime when it come to foreign policy....if the jews in Israel wanted peace,wanted to change the way of their world it would have happened...god knows there has been enough chances...

would it shock you to know that i went to an exclusive private school Mavro? and had not one but 2 jewish friends?....A German jew and an English background jew....so what? the fact that in Uni i knew 2 Palestinians and 3 Jews who i got on with? So what?

cause i have known jews i must at the same time not see the injustice their people have committed against the Palestinians? isnt that being biased?....


what amazes me Mavro, is that not once have you shown true compassion for the Palestinians...your more interested in being an apologist for the Israelis, quote so many reasons why they should own the land, why they have acted as they do, as if this is defensible, but not once have you come out and mentioned the suffering of the Palestinians.....tried to castigate the Jewish state for the atrocious treatment of the Palestinians...

its cause your an Anti-Palestinian Mavro and an Anti-Arabite

i feel my friend, that although you pretend to be impartial and like the Arabs, in truth you don't like them and are one of those who is secretly racist to them, and believe all the Israeli state says of them....



see two can play that game....


when did i doubt the holocaust? are you guys suffering from cognitive degradation? is there something wrong with how sensory input works with your brains? i never doubted it...i said for all we know there could have been 6 million, 5 million or 8 million...there is no exact figure on the deaths.....

but as Zeus mentioned, we all talk about the 6 million but fail to even discuss the other 4 million gypsies, slavs etc who died....why?

anyway...as i said before, Mavro your free to call me whatever you like, and whatever makes you feel better, makes your world make sense to you....think within the box others have created for us....

the issue is simple to me, the Jews have no greater right to Palestine....they took it, flouting UN law time and time again.....have had a big hand in creating the mess the ME is in, along with the US who's strategic interests they have prostituted themselves too.....and have oppressed a Palestinian people for decades, driving them into exile....and throw them scraps....when these poor bastards fight back whichever way they can, their called terrorists....

what a lovely world we live in, how the entire public opinion can be stupefied and silenced while a new nazi regime can stomp on human rights.....



to cap it off Mavro....simply.....this .....as horrible as it was....




does not make this right....

http://rapidshare.com/files/101418053/atta..._03_13.zip.html

Why this aggressive tone my friend?

Maybe I am also a guy who hangs around in isreali forums and accuse the zionists there of mass murder and facism?
And guess what..I am still alive and not even brainwashed.

But to answer you the question Deman..I am one of those guys who has been to some "Konzentrationslager" and I saw it with my own eyes.
I met jews(I met africans who just escaped mass murder in ruanda while I worked for AI)who told me their story..as I met also armenians,greeks and cypriots.kurds,leftist algerians whatever you like,all these people suffered crimes and horrible things,I even have these people in my family..so please..you are free to call me an "apologist" for these peoiple dear Deman,I have no problem with that.

I never wanted you to do so..you never insulted me and we both never had a bad word..so this chapter can be closed dear friend.

I will accept sources which are double cross checked..and I know that numbers can be raped untill to get what you want.
This is a reason I stopped to work as journlist for many years Deman.

I know that it is very difficult for the most people of this earth to understand that any kind of conspiracy is very hard to hide.
To "control" something like the "media" or "the politicians" implies that ALL OF THEM would play this conspiracy game.
And come on Deman..you are not that stupid..right?

Yes..really Deman.
And how could you say this in the same sentence with "I am no racist"??
Why don´t you travel for only a week to tel aviv and you will see that still most of the young isrealis like to party all night exactly like any other european.
They hate their millitary service,and yes..they have fear as any other human being that a suicide bomber will kill them in any possible next moment.
Most of them hates the fanatical jews in their country and you can compare the whole discussion about this issue with this what we see daily here in this forum between the kemalists turks and the more conservative AKP people.
Not so different.
The isreali society has a huge problem with these fanatical jews which right now are coming from the arab states and the ex-soviet union countries.
This is not a big secret.

Only two??

I needed to meet thousands and thousands of germans to learn exactly their menatlity and their habbits.
You think really that you learn something from two persons?
I know more turks that a lots of turkish forum members here from the US or canada or the netherlands..still I am very cautios in my opinion about the "turkish mentality".

You are very wrong my friend..my AI group took(and still do so) care for hundreds of palestinians who dissapeared in isreali prisons..how many palestinians did you took care for?
Is it maybe you who is a little bit biased?

Well,honestly Deman..this is what you don´t understand.
Untill I got 20 years old I grew up in a cologne suburb full of turks,arabs,yugos etc..and I never thought even about to seperate people in anything..untill I met fascists people who killed friends of mine and their relatives..for the only reason they had a darker skin.

There are exact numbers..germans were(and stll are) the best organisers of this world.
Noone ever had doubt about this fact.
Only the folks who deny the holocaust like to discuss the "real numbers".

I don´t know what the buzz in australia..but the gypsies(I am not allowed to call them by this name here in germany since this could bring me into jail ) are now on the "same protection level" as the jews here in germany.
We are only allowed to call them Sinti/Roma.
There are hundreds of places which show the sufferings of the sinti/roma dear Deman..I honestly don´t know what you are talking about.

Anyway..

Mavro I'm unsure where your abode is.But I was just wondering whether Amnesty international is prominent amongst the greeks in greece.I know many people here in Australia who belong to it and are quite active within it.

MAvro there was no aggressive tone in my post...i was just being firm and to the point....i mean you basically stated i was racist and an anti semite so i guess it was par for course, my right to put my position across clearly....


once more you misunderstand me....you stated most Israelis are not racist which was a pretty unsubstantiated and generalized comment....what i said, that it is hard to accept this when the acts of the jewish state are fascist and hard line to the max...and given its a democracy the will of the people, if they were so against the policy of the State would have voted for change.....is that so hard to follow?

People in Tel aviv partying and going to Disco's and wanting to live life? and so? Im sure if you go to Palestine you will also see allot of youth also wanting to enjoy their lives...go to the USA and you will also see millions in disco's, just wanting to live their lives, but the US has had a war every few years.....this shows what exactly? ask the average Yank what he thinks of Arabs etc etc etc and you will get a racist reaction, even if on many other levels they look like average decent people.....when it comes to foreign policy most Americans are hard core.....

Once again you accuse me of being racist when not one comment i made gives this impression...you work for Amnesty international? good for you Mavro, im impressed...does this mean you have all the answers and i cant express my opinion on such matters? i haven't saved a Palestinian as you have so i guess ill shut up hey Mavro, i have no right to talk? do you know how condescending your comment sounds?

You take exception to the fact i knew a few jews which meant exactly what? that i must know at least 1000 before i can express my view on Palestine? then katalava...

i grew up in a nation which is probably one of the most multi cultural in the world, i grew up with 170 nationalities....you can find any nationality in this country.....and not for 10-15 years but for the last 40 years......i have learnt to live with and appreciate many cultures....and think not one is any more special than the other....jew , greek, turk or who ever....we have learned to live with each other and respect our differences and rights....

so the racist tag doesn't befit me mate....and once again the tone of your post is to subtly make me out to be anti semitic....


anyway....as i said you are free to see me as you like...i will continue to criticise the Israeli state for what it is a fascist state that perpetrates inhumane violations of the Palestinians rights...

i pray that one day the reasonable peace loving jews in Israel, who you seem to think number so many finally stand up and demand change for the region...but i can only see things getting worse...

Deman..the only thing " I accuse" you of is that I hear from you the same accusation vs jews which I heard also from people which vote for extrem right wing parties.
I am sure that you are no anti semit or any kind of racist..
Also most of the germans who said nothing when their jewish neighbours were taken by the Gestapo late in the night and disapeared in the KZs.
Noone of them were racist..all of them after the war said "we did not know it"..

Anyway..

Deman are you questioning Israeli policy and tactics again? Haven't you realized by now that the Holocaust gives Israel a green light to do as it pleases?

Don't you know by now that Jews are more important than the rest of us?

What do you mean?
Of course I think it's wrong innocent people get slaughtered. They didn't ask for a war, they didn't ask for misery, why should they suffer? I obviously understand this is the reality of war, but it makes no difference their skin colour or religion.

I dunno, apparently I'm a racist anti-semetic bigot with 2% of his brain cells working, because I chose to disagree with Israel's policies and tactics against the entire Palestinian population.

Some people actually believe it is simply about protecting Israel's borders and its people from terrorists, they seem to forget why those terrorists exist in the first place(not that there is justification for killing innocent people), they seem to forget that Israel keeps pushing its borders further and further out, expanding and building settlements on Palestinian land.
Israel could end the whole thing by pulling out of all of Palestinian land, and offering an olive branch for talks on how to divide Jerusalem. Not every Palestinian is a terrorist, there are many who will take the branch. How can you expect them to accept peace or talk about it with you when your occupying their lands and terrorising them with your military superiority?

Come invade my back yard. Then try and negotiate a settlement with me. See how far you get. I'll be trying to get you out of my backyard anyway I can.
Its that simple. Get out of Palestine.

But no, its easier to just label people anti semetic nazi skin heads wiht 2% of their brain cells working, then admitting that those people might have a point. Some egos...

actually Jews have been found to be genetically most closesy related to Armenians and Iraqi Kurds which would suggest the original homeland of the Hebrews is located in the Fertile Crescent in modern day Northern Iraq and that they later migrated to the land of Canaan and founded Israel/Judah.

the Jews were driven out of Israel/Judah by the Romans, not the Arabs.

the Palestinians are supposedly descended from the ancient Canaanites/ Philistines who were Islamized and Arabized by Muslim armies from the Arabian Peninsula

Let me just say one other thing, if you think Arte, that various Aboriginal tribes did not resist the white settlers and simply rolled over and died, it shows how little you know.

I won't give examples, because you like to act like some sort of philosopher around here who knows everything while everyone else is stupid, so I'll let you tell everyone(if you manage to go find the things I'm talking about). I'm sure some of the other guys in Oz know, maybe you can ask them for some hints, they might be gracious enough to share with you.

I don't understand what you are trying to say. That there was or there was not Aboriginal armed resistance?
There were some sporadic and uncoordinated attempts by the natives to resist violently a long time ago. What does it prove? And why are you asking me? I never pretended to be an authority on the Aboriginals, I simply gave some generally well known facts. Namely that the whites invited themselves to Australia, mistreated the natives for centuries and the current condition of the natives in a rich and democratic country remains miserable. Deny it all you want, I could not care less about where this thread is going. Go have a moan with Deman about how evil the Jews are. Israel proves Hitler was right, yeah?

There are genetic links between Jews, Armenians and Kurds but I don't think you can say they are closer together than the Jews are to the Palestinians. Or that their original home was in eastern Anatolia. In any case, following that route we can say the Palestinians original home was Greece or Africa or with more justification the Arabian peninsula.

why wouldnt you say they are closer related to Armenians/Kurds than they are to Palestinians?

genetically and anthropoligicaly they are closer to the poulations of the Fertile Crescent than they are to the Palesinians and other Levantines and if you believe what the Torah says about the Jews coming to Israel/Judah fom another land it would make sense that they were originally from the modern day nothern Iraq and that they left and settled into Canaan.

also why would you say that one could claim that the Palestinians original homeland is in Greece or Africa?

the Palestinians are descended from the Philistines, the Muslim amies from Arabia who invded the region and converted them into Muslims were largely Bedouins whose direct descendants still live their traditional nomadic lifestyle in the Negev desert

I did not express myself well. What I meant was that the Jews and the Palestinians have both roots in the same area and if you strip away later admixtures mainly from the Ashkenazi Jews and the Palestinians you would find the two ancestral populations were closely related. It is still evident from the fact the Shephardic Jews, Palestinians and Lebanese have similar haplotype paterns.
This is the la-*test*-('") paper I am aware of.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12820706?dopt=Citation

Later admixtures (Crusaders in Lebanese Christians, Arabians in Lebanese Muslims and Palestinians, Central Europeans in Askhenazi) have complicated the picture and hence if one looks at Y-chromosome frequencies may conclude that Shephardic Jews are genetically closer to more distant populations (eg Kurds).
Of course the genetic relation from the Neolithic demic diffusion does exist but I would not say it is limited to Jews. Simply in Shephardic Jews it has remained strong while in others it has been diluted.

The Philistines were one of the Sea Peoples who are thought to have originated from the Aegean and southern Anatolia. There is some archaeological and genetic evidence to back that theory but it is limited to the littoral, nowhere near the West Bank.
If I remember correctly Arabs were present in the area, as far as the mountains of Lebanon already in Alexander TG time as mentioned by Plutarch.
Also there is significant Sub-Saharan African admixture in the Palestinians (maternally I think).