well i just read about it ,and yes you are right .These clowns were allowed in by the israeli soldiers guarding the camp.

Well, there may have been complicity by Ariel Sharon but it has never been proven. Still I am glad that fat arsehole is rotting away in his sickbed for a couple of years now.

Arte your argument is flawed.

If what the white British settlers did to Aborigines, and what Australia has done since, is so much worse then what the Israelis have done, then why is it that the Aborigines have yet to take up arms and begin a resistance against the white mans rule?

Yet in Palestine, the Israelis who are so nice to the Palestinians, have a deadly uprising and daily killings on their hands.

Yep, Australia is so much worse at treating indigenous minorities.

The majority of Australia is barren desert and scrub land. What's your point?

Not so much an uprising, but they have pro-*test*-('")ed often, and setup their own "tent" embassies around the country, including one in front of the federal parliament. They haven't resorted to blowing them selves up in our shopping centers and on our buses, I wonder why.

Are you sure it has nothing to do with correcting past wrongs so white and black Australia can live in harmony together, as one people, one country, nothing to do with people feeling compassion for their fellow Australians. It's all just about making our selves feel better. Riiight.


Anyway back to the topic of the zionist state. Surely for a people who were subjected to such horrors in WW2, that they believe their suffering is of more importance than anyone else's in that terrible time period, they would at least use violence as a last resort, rather then inflict untold suffering on others. Hypocrisy.

And btw, you might want to stop calling them Abo's. Thats a racial slur. I'm sure if I used the term kikes, you would be less then thrilled.

I fully agree with you Mickey, I just want to point out that the Sabra and Chatila massacres were not committed by Israelis but by Christian Arab fascists.


With that logic hitler himself never killed anyone, just his soldiers under his orders. The israelis knew very well what was going to happen and they could have stopped EASILY but they choose not to knowing full the consequences. It might as well have been their soldiers who did it.

There's no religious extremism to fuel death. Aborigines CAN'T take up arms against the white man while the Palestinians have the number of people and the means to fight. There are fundamental cultural differences between the Palestinians and the Aborigines - how much nationalism will you find in Arnhemland as opposed to the West Bank? And finally Australia isn't located in the most backward place on the entire planet.

Go on then. Take the next logical step. Tell us that the Jews in Nazi Germany were not treated that badly either because they did not start armed resistance

While the West Bank and Gaza are Gardens of Eden right?
My point is that there is much fiercer competition for land in Palestine and yet the Israelis are proportionately willing to return to the Palestinians much more of their land. Also that many Aboriginal communities survived precisely because they lived on land that was worthless or relatively inaccessible to the whites.

So, had they been sending their womenfolk to the super market strapped with explosives their treatment by the Australians would not have been any different?

Well, I was actually wrong. It had to do with Australian pride too. Not nice to have worse slums than Bangladesh, is it?

Guess who is more likely to grow up and become a violent adult. One who has been brutalised as a child or one who has never been beaten up. If you get it right you win a

Ooops! From now on I will call them Genies for short. What about Aussies? Is that a racial slur in your parts?

Ariel Sharon was the defense minister and the architect of the Lebanon invasion. If you have proof of what you say then it would be very embarassing for Mr Abbas and the Fatah

maybe you should have followed your poigniant advice...and kept your mouth shut....would have saved allot of Grief...for all of us...

firstly, have you heard of the Mabo treaty? this gave land rights to many aboriginal communities, i.e they got ownership rights to aboriginal communities...ofcourse as your sarcastically comment they cant walk off with the opera house and harbour bridge....but they own the land....mining companies pay huge royalties to their communities, farming projects, cattle operations pay royalties to their communities.....enriching them and helping them move out of poverty...but this will take time...


with the current apology to them by the current Rudd Labor government, and the way opening for damages over the stolen generation, Australia is paying for its past sins...

and before you pass comment on our suppossed guilt in your eyes, or whether were complicent in the past transgressions on the Aborigines, lets clarify one thing Arti, its your English homeland that Fucked the Aboriginals firstly, it was English Justice that termend australia Terra Nullus, void land, stole it and colonised it....and massacred hundres of thousands...by the same association you should owe a debt of guilt as well? why not? you live in a nation that shares a major burden of responsibility over the oppression of the Aboriginals....so if it is ok to entirely mitigate your obligations, why is it necessary to foist guilt on me and Zeus? do you know that Australia outlays hundreds of Millions on Aboriginals, all paid by tax dollars, mine, Zeus's and i have never ever complained about it, i think more should be done to help bring the indiginous community up to the same quality of life that the general australian society shares....all this when my parents nor I had a share in the original crimes against them.....who are you to come in here and pompously assume i should have remose or otherwise?

you still cant get over the fact that the original sins were committed back in the 18th century....it did not happen in 1948 as with the Jewish /palestine issue...no matter how much you gloss over that little issue, its still stands out starkly....


you took my original statement which i spouted in anger over these shocking photos, and ran with it....not taking the time to try and understand what i meant and that my feelings were based on anger....

to simplify it for you, just to ensure no further misunderstandings, and to save you the hassle of feeling the need to correct us mischiouvous little rascals from down under, after all we must keep those pescy colonials in their place....

i dont advocate the armed destruction of Israel, i advocate the change to the current status quo, the nature of the Israeli state, a creation of either a new state based on a more just footing, where Palestinians can equally share in all the benefits, or the allocation of current israeli occupied land to the palestinians, along the original 1948 partition? is that clear enough?

Mavro

i will try and find the document that had a general census of the population of Palestine at the turn of the century...at the time there were less than 30,000 jews left...

were you aware of a movement called pan zionism? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

originally it was started in the mid1800's by an Italian Jew....advocating a movement of jews back to palestine


check out this source, which gives a good indication of how few Jews existed in Palestine even as late as 1914...

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Pa...d/Story414.html

Mavro be serious, your actually quoting the old -*test*-('")ament as justification for their settlement of Palestine?....no seriously are you? the old -*test*-('")ament is a history book, nothing more, a book of historical lore of their religion....no more binding than any other book of fiction....

they lost 6 million people in the holocaust? did you not read my last post to you re MAvro? who is disputing this? what so we all bend over for them? your fostering the usual guiLt TRIP...

lets be clear, yes jews were hideously killed by the nazi regmine in WW2 in factories of inhumanity the likes of which has never been seen and hopefully man will never at-*test*-('") to such atrocities again....but what do you want from us? do we bend over and give them the whole world as compensation?...and how does this justify their rights to the land of israel?....so they get whatever hey want cause we are made to feel abject guilt over something we had no part in....

over half israelis know what is wrong with the Jewish state? i hope your right, but i see precious little movement for change in Israel's fascist conduct towards the palestinians...

doesnt it ever strike you as strange that a race that cliams to have suffered so much, can perform almost the same oppression on the palestians? doesnt that make them twice as guilty? i mean if you accuse someone of being a thief then steal yourself it makes you a thief and a hypocrite, does it not?

Mavro, i am a pragmatist...its impossible to tell the jews to leave, i dont demand the jews to return palestine to how it was, only they meet the palestians half way....equally share the land ...the palestinians have an equal claim to the land....

I did open my big mouth when you made an openly racist remark against Jews and mirroring Al Qaeda fanatics and Iranian mullahs and politicians wished the destruction of Israel.
Then you came back with other comments to continue trying to masquerade antisemitism as criticism of Israel.
So I got annoyed I had to argue against two people living on land that was originally somebody else's, was taken without the original owner's consent and the original owner been the subject of all sorts of abuses, marginalization and neglect until now.
I wanted to say to you two "He who has never sinned cast the first stone" and I think I have done it successfully. Whether you personally have understood it I don't know. It seems I was right in my initial assessment unfortunately.
My original intention was not to bash Australia but hey, I don't care. It is not often Australians are bashed, they can take it.
This is not a Britain versus Australia debate and you are stupid for even mentioning it. The Aussies inherited everything from Britain including guilt without this giving absolution to the British. But be aware of some differences between me and you:

1) I would gladly bash the UK with you on many issues and I always, given half a chance, do it on the Cyprus issue. Not only on the net but to the Brits face. And I do it to the Greeks face too and not only on Cyprus.

2) I don't reside on land taken by force from any other population. I am not criticising you for doing it, it is a fact of life, but it is stupid for example to have a go at Turks for living in Istanbul if you live in Australia or the US. Same goes for Israel. Yes it was Arab land but at least it was created with the agreement of the UN. It is a reality and had Israel not been attacked they would probably be at their 1948 border.

3) The treatment of Palestinian civilians by Israel is despicable but I can not watch idle when it becomes a vehicle for spitting venom on Jews in general with irrelevant remarks about their "chosen people" attitude. It is at least laughable coming from Greeks or Turks, two of the most nationalistic people on earth. For how many Greeks don't have the "When we built the Parthenon everybody else was swinging from trees" inferiority/superiority complex?

Finally I give up on this thread. I am not the one to change your views but I needed to vent as they make me

Deman said:

You are doubting the number of Jewish deaths during WWII? Do you doubt the number of armenian deaths during WWI? I don't think so. So numbers are simply relative to you as they suit your agenda?


Then you go on to say that the Jews had no right to the lands of Palestine even though they were there since about 6 thousand years ago. Was it not you also who said that Cyprus was greek because the greeks were there before the Turks?

No offence mate but it seems to me that you may be suffering a bit from "double standard syndrome". If you are such a champion of truth and justice, I would appreciate it if you would apply it across the board rather than picking and chosing.

Kaya, please, this has nothing to do with the discussions on the Armenian genocide.


As for you Arte, well I thought you were above childish insults, and wanted a somewhat serious debate. I would oblige you and engage in similar stupid behavior, but I'm sure you're collaborator is ready to give me another ban, as when I defend my self, its my fault somehow..as can be seen in the independence day thread.


I like your train of thought Deman, he should have just kept quiet instead of starting a debate which he only intends to use to try and bait me to go too far(as can be seen twice already--surprise surprise dear admin has nothing to say about that though...guess the posters name wasn't zeus or duke lol) so you know who can deal with me. This whole discussion is a waste of time. Arte just has to be right, regardless of the fact he is talking out his ass most of the time right now, as he thinks he knows the country we live in better then we do. Ahh, such people. I mean re, the guy is comparing a war zone to a country that has never had a major war occur on its soil(save the few bombing raids by the japs on darwin). Two completely different situations, which were brought about from two different sets of circumstances, and he is trying to argue as if they are the same. Like I said, can they make their attempts any more obvious..

I beg to differ, Zeus. The topic is relative to all so called "genocides". I have to admit that I was a pleasantly surprised at your post where you mention the millions of non-Jews that were slaughtered during WWII. Do you feel the same about the millions of Muslims that were wasted during WWI? If you think that this is inappropriate for this thread I will start an appropriate thread just to learn your and Deman's feelings on the subject.

no if you read my comment correctly i don't question the holocaust....but no one ca nsay with any certainty that 6 million or five or 7 million died....that it was wholesale massacre is beyond a doubt...as with the Armenian genocide...whether it was 1.2 or 1.5 or 1.8 million is not the point....the complete destruction of a race is the issue.....


Kaya again it is you who is reading my post digesting it via your biased cognative filters to suite your point of view....

i did not say Israel has no claim to palestine, only that in possession of all of it now, at the expense of the Palestinians who have an equal if not greater claim to it is unjust....so the Palestinians get squat simply cause the will of Jewish arms denies them it? is that just?

the jews constantly claim that this is the land God gave them, claim historial lore of 6000 years ago, were absent for 2000 years approx, then come back in droves and take it off the Palestinians by force, flouting countless UN sanctions, even when the original UN partition was very liberal to the jewish state.....

Cyprus is a similar case...Greeks have ALways been there....Turks only since the 1500's when it was captured in complete in 1570....

having said that i for one do not deny that turks have a presence and right to share the island....just not as it is now, divided and in conflict...but a federation of both races, but respecting the fact the Greeks are the original settlers and the majority....


i don't like some here, to be a paragon of virtue....but i can still express my opinion on what is wrong and unjust.....what your saying the Palestinians being forced to live as refugees in their own land and foreign lands for over 4 decades is the right thing to do?...

so now i share the views of Iranian hard core Mullahs? Go on arti call me a Neo Nazi....im sure you have thought it more than once....does it make a difference that on the traditional political spectrum im left of center?


but hay were not talking about the normal political bipolar scale are we, its Israel and the jews were discussing, and to the droves of apologists for the Israeli state, any criticism of that defunct and unjust state, a state who would give the original nazis a run for their money, is tantamount to anti-semitism....the catch phrase of all who want to deflect negative criticism of Israel.....a nice way to shut everyone against the acts of the Israeli state up...


so for me to say the Israeli state is a defunct political entity and based on a theft of land which took place no more than 5 decades ago, is spewing vitriol and venom at the jews? simply cause i believe the original powers that be allowed such an atrocity, and to favour Jewish nationalism in the face of guilt over the holocaust, stepped on the rights, needs and culture/history of the entire palestinian people? if we define anti semitism as any criticism of the jews and israel, well i guess you get to cast your stone Arti....sinless or not...tar me with any brush you like....

you criticize turks/Greeks who you supposedly assume have a chosen people attitude, but not the jews, who to this day still believe God above all chose them over all the races of the world...yes Greeks have issues...

as for Australia, you were trying to be glib and a smart ass, sorry but its exactly what your attempt to tar us as guilty of persecuting the Aborigines was.....

When Israel begins to address the palestinian issue in the same honest way Australia is attempting to make up for its disgusting past sins with the Aborigines, ill lay of Israel, until then their just another state who uses the might is right logic to oppress a weaker people.....

and next time, clarify what the opposing person in a debate truly means and thinks before running of at the mouth, assuming allot and painting yourself into a corner....