But you don't call yourself Martian, right?

Identities are shaped over time due to various factors that influence a group of people. You don't just wake up one day and decide you are not Greek but Martian. So, one can objectively ask whether a Slavo-macedonian identity exists that considers itself separate from the Bulgarian identity. The obvious answer to that is yes, such an identity exists.

I mean, what makes the "Bosnian" identity legitimate, given that they called themselves Serbs before becoming Muslims, and what makes the Slav/Macedonian identity illegitimate? The line between these two are not as clear cut as many Greeks claim it to be. Similarly, (quoting a previous post by rembet), why are there separate Turkish and Azeri identities given that both speak almost exactly the same language? We are not to deny Azeris a separate identity because of this, right?

Wait wait wait. Azeris don't claim to be Persians? That's true, but the Macedonians don't claim to be Greeks! If you mean "Azerbaijan doesn't anachronistically appropriate symbols of Persian culture", THAT'S true. But again I feel like every country has a right to build its national identity any crazy way it wants. What was that song about how St. George was from Lebanon, how he became English I don't know? The Arabs use Saladin as a pan-Arab symbol, when he was in fact a Kurd. They used this even during Saddam's time in Iraq, when Kurds were being gassed and whatnot. So y'know, if you want to go around revoking everyone's right to have a crazy identity, we're gonna have to get rid of nation-states altogether.

Which would probably not be a bad idea.

As long as we're on the subject, Bosniaks didn't call themselves Serbs before becoming Muslim. SOME did. Bosniaks have called themselves MANY things, and the ancestors of the group you would call "Boşnaklar" probably had at LEAST the following names for themselves at some point after the Slavs first arrived in the Balkans and before Jugoslavija died the last time:

-Slavs
-Jugoslavs
-Bosniaks
-Bosnians
-Serbs
-Croats
-Muslims
-Muslim Jugoslavs
-Muslim Croats
-Muslim Serbs
-Bosnian Muslims
-Turks
-Ottomans

And many others, I'm sure, I'm not even googling or checking for other possible labels.

If the slavs in FYROM would call themselves "Slavo-Macedonians" and name their country "Slavic-Macedonia" I personally wouldn`t have any problems with that.And quite frankly, many Greeks and Greece today would have no problem with that either.The question is, would the Albanian minority in FYROM accept FYROM to change their name to "Slavic-Macedonia".I really don`t know.Maybe, maybe not.And another question too: would the slavs in FYROM change their name to "Slavic-Macedonia" today?I don`t think they would do that.All they are talking about is to be recognized with their constitutional name and to be used internationally: "Republic of Macedonia".

But wait a minute, Greece has the same situation with the Greek Cypriots.Why?Because we are the same people.Just as the Turks and Azeris are the same people.It`s not as if the Azeris claim to be something different and on top of that that Kemal Ataturk was an Azeri and not a Turk.Just ONE example to show how ridiculous FYROM is.

But we are talking about a slavic-Bulgarian people in FYROM who don`t really know what they are imho.That is the problem here.First they were Macedonians when they in the 90s asked the world to recognize them as "Macedonia".And then they were slavs according to FYROM`s President Kligorov which he said in 1992.And now they are ancient Macedonians according to the current administration in FYROM.

No, they claim to be ancient Macedonians.

I mean, y'know, eyeroll acknowledged. Mockery of Macedonian mind-changing acknowledged. Recognition that they're probably gonna keep nation-building in whatever silly way they want, and what will affect it far more is how it affects the interior of the country's ability to be united than how much it offends a bunch of Greeks whose ownership over everything in history should not be questioned lest they tell you your nation doesn't exist.

The Macedonians want to be the Ancient Macedonians. Can't we let them? Can't we just let them have their fun, just like we all let the Turks have their fun and pretend they were identical in every way to their purported Siberian ancestors, and just like we all let the Greeks have their fun when they wanted to pretend that the inhabitants of the old Hellenic city states were a unified nation who are in no way separable from today's Greeks, despite the Slavic invasion and the Byzantine empire and the Ottoman empire and whatwhat?

We are not angels and have done our fair share of nationalistic crap but for Greece this stopped more than 80 years ago with 1922. You also have to place it it context, considering many millions of Greeks lived in the former Ottoman empire and were harshly oppressed. Compared to our neighbours, at the current timeframe, we are a completely different people. How exactly are the events that have been happening in the former Yugoslavia since 1991 Greece's fault? Serbs and Kosovars did not need Greece to kill each other. The Slavmacedonians and the Albanians did not exactly wait for Greece to give them a nudge to start a civil war in 2001.

You can hardly blame Greece for what was happening EVERYWHERE in the world at the time. Everyone did ethnic cleansing. Not that it was right but you cannot judge history with the morals of today. And besides compared to our neighbours, minorities in Greece were treated a lot better. At least we did not throw the Turks in Thrace out with pogroms and murders. And what do we get in return? Them talking about the "vile Greeks", how they would like to join the "motherland" and trying to convert the Pomaks into Turks. Greece may not have trusted them and treated them with (a lot of) suspicion but one ill turn does not deserve another. As much as hindsight is 20/20 the population exchange should have been full. No Turks should have remained in Greece and no Greeks should have remained in Turkey. It would have saved us a lot of trouble.

They are not a nation state. If they had been a nation state with one dominant ethnic group, the Albanians would not have made a point of not accepting any compromise on the name issue that included the term "Slav". Nor would the Slavmacedonians actually accept such an ultimatum. And besides, how exactly them being a nation state (even if it were so) would make their nationalism legitimate? Just because they are late to the party (by about a century), it doesn't mean they have the right to steal our history, have standing claims on our land and generally being dicks to any Greeks that pass through there. They can call themselves whatever they like. Hell, they can even claim to be Greeks. As long as they drop the fantasy about them being descendants of the ancient Macedonians and accept a change in their name that shows that they are willing to drop their claims on our land.

Nice strawman you have there. I don't hate them. I hate people like Gruevski who are quite ready to play fire with their own people and with the even more extreme Albanian nationalism just to further their political career. Seriously, what kind of an (dangerous) idiot places ancient stone inscriptions IN GREEK (found in FYROM), so he can prove his people are direct descendants of the ancient Macedonians?

Man, I don't even know where to start with this. At several points in here you say "Greece was just doing what everyone else was doing", which was my point. Everyone does horrible crap. I wasn't "blaming Greece for Jugoslavija" (there are far too many people I could blame whose fault it actually WAS for me to go around blaming the Greeks).

What else, you say the Turks are trying to turn the Pomaks into Turks, but, I mean, wouldn't you say Greece tried to turn them into Turks? Y'know, back when the Ottoman empire was crumbling and you declared all Muslims to be "Turks", including those who spoke Greek? (See: Syria) Didn't Greece turn them into Turks long ago when it opened Islamic schools for the Muslim minority in Greece but didn't differentiate between Pomaks and Turks and then had Turkish taught in those schools? (While in Turkey, Greeks and Armenians each had their own schools.)

They are not a nation state. If they had been a nation state with one dominant ethnic group, the Albanians would not have made a point of not accepting any compromise on the name issue that included the term "Slav". Nor would the Slavmacedonians actually accept such an ultimatum. And besides, how exactly them being a nation state (even if it were so) would make their nationalism legitimate? Just because they are late to the party (by about a century), it doesn't mean they have the right to steal our history, have standing claims on our land and generally being dicks to any Greeks that pass through there. They can call themselves whatever they like. Hell, they can even claim to be Greeks. As long as they drop the fantasy about them being descendants of the ancient Macedonians and accept a change in their name that shows that they are willing to drop their claims on our land.

They are a nation state, they have all the familiar symptoms of a nation state. That the Albanians don't like it being emphasised further is just reasonable. Nation states are always harmful to minorities. Look at the Kurds. As for that legitimising it, it doesn't. Nation states are bad. But we still live in a world of them, so we can't go around calling the Macedonians bad for being nationalists when every one of their neighbours does the exact same shit. For the claims on your land, I agree, Greeks borders are legit, the few Slavs in the north of Greece who call themselves Macedonians don't question the borders, and neither should Macedonia in claiming to seek "their" "liberation". As I've said before though, they have a right to fantasise that they're whatever they want to. We let Jews pretend to be ancient Israelites, Greeks pretend to be Ancient Greeks, Turks pretend to be Siberian friends-of-Genghis-Khan, and we let all manner of other people pretend all manner of other silly games in the name of keeping national myths alive.

There has been a lot of intimidation from ethnic Turks in Thrace towards the Pomaks with the intent to stop them from declaring they are Pomaks, all with the silent acceptable of the Turkish consulate in Thrace. Plus, we are also idiots. We really shot our foot with that "muslim minority" in the Lausanne treaty. I think we should agree with Turkey to abolish it. After all, there are hardly any Greeks left in Turkey and Turkey is using the minority as a weapon against Greece.

They may be a nation state now. But not for long. Soon enough they will be forced to either split in two separate entities (as in Belgium) or they will be forced to recognise that their state is not longer a nation state. At that point they will realise how stupid they were for not settling the name issue and instead allying with Albanian nationalism.

For the first bit, I agree completely!

For the second bit, I agree they could become like Belgium, but you realise that the Flemish have maintained their Flemish identity rather than just "realising how stupid their identity is" and declaring themselves all as Dutch? And that Walloons too do not "realise how stupid their identity is" and declare themselves French?

Trust me friend, their identity will remain distinct.

Well I just saw that Macedonian map with Saloniki in. Dreamers' maps...

Maybe now you do understand what Turs feel when they see Turkey maps without whole East Southern part of it in EU diplomatic offices and at every anti - Turkish people...

I don't care about their identity. As long as they drop the claims on our history and our land they can do whatever they want. But calling for the "hellenistic age" to be named henceforth, the "macedonistic age" is certainly not going to buy them any goodwill in the international community. Hell, they are not even trying to maintain good relations with the one neighbour they need most (because of Thessaloniki and tons of investments).

True but we also have to remember that also Greece Turkified the Pomaks in order to make the Pomaks to lose their "Bulgarian" conscious during the 50s so that Bulgaria wouldn`t be able to make claims that there`s a Bulgarian minority in Greece and that Greece oppresses them and therefore would start to make claims on Greek lands and so on...so we have our own to blame too.When we saw that Turkey started to become more and more active in Greek Thraki we realized our mistake, now we trying to undo that, let`s hope it`s not too late.

I personally would like to see Greece recognize the Turks, Pomaks and the Romas as three different national ethnic minorities.Not only in the name of improving the human rights but also to make it more difficult for Turkey to Turkify the Pomaks in Greek Thraki.

There`s also of course other things too Greece could do to improve the rights of Turks, Pomaks and Romas in Greek Thraki.

It might be too late to keep the Pomaks from all "becoming Turks", but we'll see. Certainly the gypsies will always be gypsies, as gypsies are wont to remain as such, regardless of faith.

I agree with a lot of this. But, please see my new signature:

pomaks are already distant themselves from the hardcore turks in Thrace. And its only the beggining